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Another suggestion for PK / Karma system

7 posts in this topic

Posted

Hello,

Notice: This is a very serious, long, post. I have put a lot of effort into it. Reasonable feedback appreciated, please reply seriously, after you have read it.

After the initial shock of last patch, I have thought things through and talked to some people and I'd like to raise what we came up with as an idea to solve this issue. I do not know how difficult it is to implement technically, but we think it is a very good solution.

We understand the reasoning behind not punishing with XP reduction. "lower level" people had complained about this, but in fact - it is the biggest problem for the "high level" players. Losing % at 51 (or below)? Not fun. Losing % at 58? Just imagining this feels like a punch in the face.

I do want people who support the change in it's current form (including Daum!) to consider the following:

A. I am not even sure there is such a terrible problem to solve:

I have re-rolled Maehwa when it was released. I was not in a good guild at the time. My main was fighting bosses, and my initial gear was bares and +6 set. All I could afford. And I did not get the good quests from black spirit, as it is my second character going to 50. No loyalties millions, and it was before the leveling loyalties buff. It is pretty much like starting from scratch, or worse. Moreover, Maehwa was super mega weak. We know it: 3 massive buffs in a row. I could not fight a kitten. When I saw people, wherever they were I did not even ask to stay. I run. There was no point - I could not even defeat players with 3 levels below and 30 points(dp/ap) less than me. Tried once, died.

And yet, now I am in a good guild, I am level 55.5, and I have my Liverto up, with 137/185 stats, ultimate gear - everything is nice and preparing to Valencia. I PVP often in ogres and other places, and sometimes I am getting rekt, but sometimes I pwn. If the PK was SO terrible, that would not have been possible - starting from scratch, with many strong people well ahead of me, broken class, no good guild. And yet.

Point of this: PK is a problem, but it is EVIDENTLY not so devastating as people think it is.

B. Current game design and the way it was presented demand/promote fights over spots:

- Game was presented to include open world PVP using the Karma system. People invested into the game, countless hours, taking this into consideration.
- Leveling more difficult than other servers. 56->57 is over 100 hours in OPTIMAL conditions. Sub optimal conditions can result in 300 hours which is exceedingly punishing.
- Therefore, "sharing" a spot is not acceptable, and people can't just "let it go", "share it", or "be kind". They can be very kind, but not when it comes to who defeats monsters in the best spots.


C. Main PK areas limited (related to A)
When I was a mega weakling like I have described, I survived. I simply did not go and contest THE ABSOLUTE BEST spots. That's it. And if you are not super high level - you do not need that, either.

The main areas where you will get PKd are:
- Ogres.
- Sausans.

It is perfectly reasonable to avoid these two specific spots sometimes. You can come and check them and you can enjoy them for hours, but, at some point - there will be a fight. In which case you can just go to the second best spot ( = everything else + not do ogres at that time). Only in order to level to 56/7/8, and stuff like that - are these spots required.

Secondary PK areas:
- Abandoned monastery. I got PKd there. I PKd there. It happens. BUT you CAN (and I did) grind there without getting into a fight.
- Helms post. Same thing. I have found helms to kill without getting PKd 100% of the time. Sometimes I need to move around or switch channels.

 

D. Valencia is coming
More and more high level players will move away, freeing up space. Remember at the start were Grind would PK you on sight if you went to Kzarka Shrine? Well, now there are 0 people in Kzarka Shrine 95% of the time. There will be the same effect from this.


Conclusion up to now:
I kindly ask people who are for the change to:
a. Recognize current state is not SO terrible (does not mean nothing needs to be done here!).
b. Understand "high level" players reasoning, and strive to solve issue for them as well.

Reasoning for offered solution:
- All of the above require SOME FORM of deterrent one player can inflict upon another to fight for an area. This only matters in very specific areas.
- Loss of progress is extremely punishing at high level, feels terrible at any level, needs to go away.
- Therefore, another form of deterrent needs to be implemented.

The solution I offer:
- Karma system remains the same as before change to prevent abuse.
- PKing someone will inflict upon the DEFEATED PLAYER the "Vanquished" debuff for one hour:
  * When the Vanquished player defeats monsters in THE SAME NODE AND CHANNEL as the player who had vanquished him, the vanquished player only gets a small portion of XP and Drops from that monster compared to a normal state.
- The Vanquished debuff can be removed in two ways:
 * Kill the player who had Vanquished you.
 * Wait 1 hour.
- Notice: the Vanquished debuff effect is in fact absolutely nothing if you peacefully go to another channel, or move to another node.


I do not see any way to get abusive:
- Karma system prevents vanquishing as trolling.
- Vanquished debuff not active while Vanquisher not in same node: can not kill someone and run, must remain there to defend spot if Vanquished player desires, or debuff has no effect.


It is NOT punishing in that you do not lose progress. However, it is deterring: if vanquished player remains in node where he was defeated but is not willing to fight for it, he will not make much progress. If he remains there for the duration INSTEAD of going somewhere else, he WILL be behind where he could have been, so it is punishing if you ignore it.

It is true that griefing is still possible. But it was possible before if you were not going for another level, and are not in a guild, I was victim of that. It requires that the troll sacrifices his own progress in order to grief someone's rotation - it was rare.

All in all, I think this is a well rounded solution, which is fair to all players.

Hopefully you guys like it, and hopefully, Daum implements it sooner rather than later. I would love to see a comment that states this is at least being considered.

Cheers!

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Posted

i really like ur idea but i wanne raise up a question to think it throu: 

 

what heppen if i get pked in the susan node lets say from 2-3 rotations but i was grinding in the lower back rotation (lets say 4). 

in that case i was pked for fun and now im forced to change channel \ node ? 

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Posted (edited)

Nope. I think the karma system and the XP loss before was perfect. tho if someone wants to kill you and u lose xp because of that, thats perfectly fine in the end this game is all about pvp and if u cannot defend your self when your spot is being contested then thats matter of skill/gear in both situation you either become better geared or you train more to become more skilled pvp player. Also there is allrdy solution in this aplying Guild war will not cost you exp upon death so thats enough. If u want a spot you defend it if they call players to contest you call your guild if ur guild isnt strong enough you change channel . spot. Thats how it must be. Sadly they removed the XP loss upon pvp which is a big big trouble and ppl will get killed even more for no reason and noone will care in the end.

 

Edited by Maintenance

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Posted

I think the OP idea is alright, but it would only work if lower levels try to contest your spot.
A player of equal strength would keep comming back and the debuff would just keep being switched between them.
 

Nope. I think the karma system and the XP loss before was perfect. tho if someone wants to kill you and u lose xp because of that, thats perfectly fine in the end this game is all about pvp and if u cannot defend your self when your spot is being contested then thats matter of skill/gear in both situation you either become better geared or you train more to become more skilled pvp player. Also there is allrdy solution in this aplying Guild war will not cost you exp upon death so thats enough. If u want a spot you defend it if they call players to contest you call your guild if ur guild isnt strong enough you change channel . spot. Thats how it must be. Sadly they removed the XP loss upon pvp which is a big big trouble and ppl will get killed even more for no reason and noone will care in the end.

 

Before they removed the XP loss, people just used pearls to use tears and then still not lose XP...
Biggest Wallet won the fight.

I only agree with bringing the previous system back if they also remove the tears from the pearl shop, so that everyone is actually equal.
This way a 56/7/8 won't be able to get his precious 1% back by spending cash, should he for once meet a stronger enemy, just like lower levels.

 

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Posted

I only see this idea working on nodes where you can only grind on one spot. Sausans have many different spots, for example. If people grind there, the 70k karma they lose is practically nothing if they grind for hours, especially if it's a 5-man party.

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Posted

Or the need to make pvp servers and pve servers pvp servers are like on world of warcraft pvp players and of course pvp gankers pve servers are only the arenas and battlegrounds for pvp not openworld .

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Posted (edited)

Or the need to make pvp servers and pve servers pvp servers are like on world of warcraft pvp players and of course pvp gankers pve servers are only the arenas and battlegrounds for pvp not openworld .

That is a valid alternative. I think that the game was marketed a certain way and just turning it on it's head is both difficult and unfair towards the people who bought it. I mean, right now 2-3 nodes in the game see what I believe to be over 90% of open world PVP. So one may consider them a sort of "PVP area". Even though they are not forced by a game mechanic to be like this, rather they become like this due to nature of mobs.

i really like ur idea but i wanne raise up a question to think it throu: 

 

what heppen if i get pked in the susan node lets say from 2-3 rotations but i was grinding in the lower back rotation (lets say 4). 

in that case i was pked for fun and now im forced to change channel \ node ? 

That is in fact two questions in my opinion:
1. What about nodes with more than one rotation?
- That is a disadvantage of the system. It isn't too bad though, because of next point:
2.  What if someone abuses the system, and PKs me regardless?
- PK for fun will not be common, like before - it costs Karma. You come into someone rotation in the super contested Sausan Garison - you may get vanquished. You stay out of their buisness - and you wont. Karma system still in place.

Nope. I think the karma system and the XP loss before was perfect. tho if someone wants to kill you and u lose xp because of that, thats perfectly fine in the end this game is all about pvp and if u cannot defend your self when your spot is being contested then thats matter of skill/gear in both situation you either become better geared or you train more to become more skilled pvp player. Also there is allrdy solution in this aplying Guild war will not cost you exp upon death so thats enough. If u want a spot you defend it if they call players to contest you call your guild if ur guild isnt strong enough you change channel . spot. Thats how it must be. Sadly they removed the XP loss upon pvp which is a big big trouble and ppl will get killed even more for no reason and noone will care in the end.

 

I  actually think this has some merit. But consider the fallowing:
a. We did not feel the full pain of it - none of us is 59 yet.
b. Some people are very please with the change. This means that some people felt bad with the old system, a lot of them, and very bad at that.

So, a system like what I had offered may not be your first pick. And it won't for many others. But it will deliver what everyone REALLY NEEDS:
- Ability to contest and defend areas.
- No lose of progress.

So what I am saying is not that you need to change your mind. I am saying, that what I offer will be at least "acceptable" for a very large majority of the population of players - and that very few will be super upset. With the current situation - you revert, 35% gets super upset, you don't - 60% get really upset. Few people who do not really love the system, is better the a large chunk of the population super raging and frustrated.

I think the OP idea is alright, but it would only work if lower levels try to contest your spot.
A player of equal strength would keep comming back and the debuff would just keep being switched between them.
 

If two players are similar level and one Vanquishes the other, the Vanquished can try to contest by flagging. But, if he succeeds he now loses Karma. And this can continue, until one player runs out of Karma. Except the first time, the Vanquished player will be paying Karma to try and take the spot again. That is actually a pretty nice side effect. And if players are similar level, the one with more Karma can keep going more if it is 1-1 KD ratio. So saving up Karma is clever.


On a side note, usually one side in the fight is significantly stronger then the other - so while this interaction actually sounds pretty nice to me, I think we will not see a lot of it.

I only see this idea working on nodes where you can only grind on one spot. Sausans have many different spots, for example. If people grind there, the 70k karma they lose is practically nothing if they grind for hours, especially if it's a 5-man party.

See one previous comment.

Regarding Karma balance: You can get about 150K an hour, you can each Vanquish about 2 players per hour. Maybe 3 if you grind fast. And yeah - a 5 man party should be able to hold it's own against several opponents. If a rival 5 man party comes, then it is a "fair fight" Karma-wise. But a 5 man group can fend off single contestants often. The alternative is that a 5 man group can not fight many contestants - which makes less sense, I think.

Or the need to make pvp servers and pve servers pvp servers are like on world of warcraft pvp players and of course pvp gankers pve servers are only the arenas and battlegrounds for pvp not openworld .

That is a valid option. But I think it is technically difficult to implement, in addition to not being advertised in the first place for the game.

But consider this:
Only a very small selection of nodes actually sees significant open world PVP. These few nodes are like "PVP areas". And they give high reward for it (otherwise there would have been no need to PVP - better grind instance content than die to other players, while people who go to PVE pass you by in terms of progression). So in actuality, you only see open world PVP in these areas - which are sort of PVP nodes, but it is just that they are not forced by "hard" mechanics, but rather by nature of mobs.


 

Edited by propush

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