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Dye P2W, is community OK about it? (POLL)

Are you ok with converting real life money into silver?   1,043 votes

  1. 1. Are you ok with converting real life money into silver?

    • No
      627
    • Yes
      416

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

332 posts in this topic

Posted

And lastly, as far as leaderboards are concerned, the game is now old enough that the ones at the top simply can't be overtaken, whales or not. The amount of time necessary to get there is insane. And even given infinite supply of materials, the only life skill you can 'buy' is processing (simple cooking and alchemy give no xp whatsoever after hitting apprentice), all the others require a massive time investment.

 

TLDR: No, life skills and leaderboards are completely unaffected by cash shop whales.

Just want to add that some (or say most) on top of leaderboards got there by abusing certain bugs, exploits or loopholes that were temporarily in the game. Not accusing anyone, but the Master Lv15+ Fishers didn't get that high by legit fishing. There was a bug which drastically increased life skill exp in certain channels.

Whale or not, they will never catch up, even if those high ranked players quit the game or stop doing certain life skills.

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Because it's not P2W, as i explained above.

 

You pay =you get in game resource

This is p2w element in the game. If you can buy silver directly or buy cash shop item and sell it in game... It doesn't matter. Same sh!t. The weight of this sells in game is small maybe, but the system/idea is pure direct and disgusting p2w. If you check the "new" cash options in time you can see the direction of Company plans. Publisher try to sell more items in RM shop and they don't care what do you think as "normal " player. Publishers will give us bigger and harder buffs and p2w contents if they think we "eat" this sh!t and they win more money in business than money generated by "exit players". And done. We will have nice New Trino2 in the end of the year. Good luck!

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Posted

Do you even know how to back your claims up?

I'm on the forum since the day it opened, November 6th. Within the first hour even, 382nd user. 

Yes, I was very active on the forum pre-launch, as most of the community. We discussed the game and what we'd like to see or have changed in our version.
Since Headstart, I'm barely on the forum since release attracted too many stupid people, but I must admit I'm around more often in the past 2 weeks since I'm basically just waiting for Valencia to (finally) come out.

But hey, nice way of derailing a topic and pointing me out when there are spammers that post 2000 spam posts per month. 

You joined the forums in November well that explains your activity. But it doesn't explain why you want to see the game go full P2W. I thought the people that helped give ideas to cater to the north American crowd knew what they were doing? And they did for the most part..vanilla BDO was great, but it seems to be getting easier with each patch. If all cash shop items can be sold like on Korea then this game will surely die in North America. It;s a proven fact. I have played every highly anticipated NA MMO out there and they die soon after P2W is included. As it is right now, with the cap on the dyes, its not a huge deal. But the door is now open and if any more P2W features hit the market place, this game will become free to play and will end up like TERA. A dead game.

And that's why i' am in this thread giving my opinion because i don't wanna see it go anymore more P2W than it already is. Look at World of Warcraft. Its basically a dead game because you can purchase whatever you want in the game with real life money on top of the fact it has very little content. Would you like to see that happen to BDO?

Just want to add that some (or say most) on top of leaderboards got there by abusing certain bugs, exploits or loopholes that were temporarily in the game. Not accusing anyone, but the Master Lv15+ Fishers didn't get that high by legit fishing. There was a bug which drastically increased life skill exp in certain channels.

Whale or not, they will never catch up, even if those high ranked players quit the game or stop doing certain life skills.

Because it's not P2W, as i explained above.

Also, Runescape is a British MMO, and is the origin of the word :)

And, where do you think those materials come from? And do you really think that people who want to skip the grinding pay *more* to do the same grind? A little logic slip here from your side my friend :)

After energy has been dropped from L processing i've been staring at my screen to process the huge surplus i had. I can't for the life of me imagine a whale paying for the privilege to do exactly the same, and they won't. They only care about the end product - Furniture, wagons, ships, armor, weapons. That's the entire reason why they're buying silver, to skip the crafting process.

Also remember, supply is limited, and only gets you so far. Processing 10000 lead ore to ingots has got me from professional 7 to 8.... Including craftsman's clothes and food buff. L processing just doesn't give you much crafting XP at all, and other processing forms (and gathering) still require energy.

And lastly, as far as leaderboards are concerned, the game is now old enough that the ones at the top simply can't be overtaken, whales or not. The amount of time necessary to get there is insane. And even given infinite supply of materials, the only life skill you can 'buy' is processing (simple cooking and alchemy give no xp whatsoever after hitting apprentice), all the others require a massive time investment.

 

TLDR: No, life skills and leaderboards are completely unaffected by cash shop whales.

Also i was referring to life skills like cooking and alchemy, where your material do in fact determine how fast you can lvl them. Especially alchemy. Alchemy requires a lot of rare materials only got through pro 10+ gathering or very slowly by workers, you should not be able to buy them with real life money.

And yes processing would be affected especially cause theres no energy loss. One with a huge wallet could eventually catch up if they can process non stop with unlimited silver.

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Posted

You pay =you get in game resource

This is p2w element in the game. If you can buy silver directly or buy cash shop item and sell it in game... It doesn't matter. Same sh!t. The weight of this sells in game is small maybe, but the system/idea is pure direct and disgusting p2w. If you check the "new" cash options in time you can see the direction of Company plans. Publisher try to sell more items in RM shop and they don't care what do you think as "normal " player. Publishers will give us bigger and harder buffs and p2w contents if they think we "eat" this sh!t and they win more money in business than money generated by "exit players". And done. We will have nice New Trino2 in the end of the year. Good luck!

You pay - You get game access, and thus have paid to win at a game where others can't without paying for it.

Also, you didn't read my previous post. Buying cash shop items to sell them is not P2W, as you don't buy resources directly and are completely dependant on other players to buy your stuff. You also seem to fail to realize the enormously vast difference between buying silver directly and buying an item to sell ingame for silver... And you're ignoring the positive coming from this: More money for the game, more money for content, and ways for people who don't have as much real money to get cash shop items. Literally everyone wins.

You only seem to be opposing this with a single argument: "It's not fair." But what, exactly, is not fair? Whales can't buy levels, they can't buy skill, they can't buy a community or a guild, they can't buy friends and they can't buy the necessary time to get the basic things like energy and CP. Or do you want to make the argument that just because you can spend 80 hours a week playing this game, everyone else should too or stop playing?

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Posted

You joined the forums in November well that explains your activity. But it doesn't explain why you want to see the game go full P2W. I thought the people that helped give ideas to cater to the north American crowd knew what they were doing? And they did for the most part..vanilla BDO was great, but it seems to be getting easier with each patch. If all cash shop items can be sold like on Korea then this game will surely die in North America. It;s a proven fact. I have played every highly anticipated NA MMO out there and they die soon after P2W is included. As it is right now, with the cap on the dyes, its not a huge deal. But the door is now open and if any more P2W features hit the market place, this game will become free to play and will end up like TERA. A dead game.

And that's why i' am in this thread giving my opinion because i don't wanna see it go anymore more P2W than it already is. Look at World of Warcraft. Its basically a dead game because you can purchase whatever you want in the game with real life money on top of the fact it has very little content. Would you like to see that happen to BDO?

I don't want this game to turn into P2W, and that is what we fought for very hard pre-launch and won. A handful of sellable dyes that are capped at 4.9 million each (apparently) is not pay to win.

You can make some extra silver by selling dyes, that is true, but it won't impact the end game (much). It will give you a small boost in your finances, but selling dyes alone will not buy you +15 boss gear and top accessories.

Unless some people are willing to spend insane amounts of money (with insane I am referring to the 50k+ mark), selling dyes will not get them far. Also, selling dyes will not level your character for you.

Even if some people are willing to spend so much on a game, I don't see this as negative either. Let them enjoy their super awesome gear until the next expansion, while Daum earns tons of money from them. This can only be positive to all of us.

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Posted

You pay - You get game access, and thus have paid to win at a game where others can't without paying for it.

Also, you didn't read my previous post. Buying cash shop items to sell them is not P2W, as you don't buy resources directly and are completely dependant on other players to buy your stuff. You also seem to fail to realize the enormously vast difference between buying silver directly and buying an item to sell ingame for silver... And you're ignoring the positive coming from this: More money for the game, more money for content, and ways for people who don't have as much real money to get cash shop items. Literally everyone wins.

You only seem to be opposing this with a single argument: "It's not fair." But what, exactly, is not fair? Whales can't buy levels, they can't buy skill, they can't buy a community or a guild, they can't buy friends and they can't buy the necessary time to get the basic things like energy and CP. Or do you want to make the argument that just because you can spend 80 hours a week playing this game, everyone else should too or stop playing?

honestly i' am done reading your posts because they make no sense. You don't understand the term P2W. you have proven this over and over and over. This will be my last quote to you in this thread..because i' am tired of repeating myself. And tired of explaining why you are so very wrong.

I don't want this game to turn into P2W, and that is what we fought for very hard pre-launch and won. A handful of sellable dyes that are capped at 4.9 million each (apparently) is not pay to win.

You can make some extra silver by selling dyes, that is true, but it won't impact the end game (much). It will give you a small boost in your finances, but selling dyes alone will not buy you +15 boss gear and top accessories.

Unless some people are willing to spend insane amounts of money (with insane I am referring to the 50k+ mark), selling dyes will not get them far. Also, selling dyes will not level your character for you.

Even if some people are willing to spend so much on a game, I don't see this as negative either. Let them enjoy their super awesome gear until the next expansion, while Daum earns tons of money from them. This can only be positive to all of us.

I agree, i can make way more money grinding at sausan's than the average person with a medium sized wallet could buying dyes. I understand this and came to an understanding that it wont impact the game(much).

But you have to agree that people with millions of dollars can spend a hundred thousand on the game and get a pretty significant advantage. But whatever. It is what it is. But i will say one last thing, if more items become available on cash shop for huge amounts of silver this game is doomed.

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Posted

I agree, i can make way more money grinding at sausan's than the average person with a medium sized wallet could buying dyes. I understand this and came to an understanding that it wont impact the game(much).

But you have to agree that people with millions of dollars can spend a hundred thousand on the game and get a pretty significant advantage. But whatever. It is what it is. But i will say one last thing, if more items become available on cash shop for huge amounts of silver this game is doomed.

I agree, millionaires can and might cash in 50k and more on dyes. However, there are very little of such players and a handful of them will not impact PvP. They are probably split across both regions and all 3 servers.

Even if there were 10 millionaires on each server, it would not affect the balance much. Instead, it is filling Daums pockets which can only be positive for the entire community.

Hopefully they will not add more sellable cash shop items, but that is where we have to stand up as a community and protest, same as we did pre-launch when we didn't want sellable cash shop items and certain items not in the cash shop. We were unite, and it worked.

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You joined the forums in November well that explains your activity. But it doesn't explain why you want to see the game go full P2W. I thought the people that helped give ideas to cater to the north American crowd knew what they were doing? And they did for the most part..vanilla BDO was great, but it seems to be getting easier with each patch. If all cash shop items can be sold like on Korea then this game will surely die in North America. It;s a proven fact. I have played every highly anticipated NA MMO out there and they die soon after P2W is included. As it is right now, with the cap on the dyes, its not a huge deal. But the door is now open and if any more P2W features hit the market place, this game will become free to play and will end up like TERA. A dead game.

And that's why i' am in this thread giving my opinion because i don't wanna see it go anymore more P2W than it already is. Look at World of Warcraft. Its basically a dead game because you can purchase whatever you want in the game with real life money on top of the fact it has very little content. Would you like to see that happen to BDO?

 

Also i was referring to life skills like cooking and alchemy, where your material do in fact determine how fast you can lvl them. Especially alchemy. Alchemy requires a lot of rare materials only got through pro 10+ gathering or very slowly by workers, you should not be able to buy them with real life money.

And yes processing would be affected especially cause theres no energy loss. One with a huge wallet could eventually catch up if they can process non stop with unlimited silver.

And how do you suppose they gain access to an unlimited supply of resources with which they can process non-stop? Do they just appear out of thin air because someone has a lot of silver? No, others have to gather it. And you can bet a whale isn't the only one buying all the stuff. You're also assuming that there's an infinite supply of materials for an infinite number of whales. Can you please, please think about what you're saying before fearmongering yourself into making such strange and illogical assumptions?

And how do you suppose they get unlimited energy to do cooking and alchemy non stop? Same thing. Simple cooking and alchemy do not give any XP after apprentice 1. This means that the only way you can level cooking and alchemy is by using energy, which is a finite resource no matter how much you pimp your account. 

Adding to this, we have to move a step back. Supply and demand. When a million black dyes are put on the marketplace, the price will tumble, and tumble, and tumble down until they're only 10 silver a piece, instead of 5m+. Adding to that, there's not enough people on a server to even BUY all those dyes. So a whale will have spend $100,000 or more for maybe a few million silver? What if 10 whales spend a mil in real money on dyes? They will most likely not even SELL the cash shop items because the market is oversaturated - No one will buy them!

You're trying to make this a lot simpler than it actually is, and you don't seem to understand the underlying principles of the game as a whole, or even basic economy. You're fearmongering, or afraid, most likely because you heard that 'this is P2W' and 'this is bad' without understanding why that actually would be the case. 

 

Lastly... Seriously, World of Warcraft is a dead game? Are you kidding me? It's still got 5 million subscriptions! Subscriptions! It's not even an F2P title and it's very much alive. 

I'm also very curious as to what games have died out so quickly 'after P2W was introduced'. I don't know of any major release closing its doors recently. The ones that did closed because they were incredibly bad games, P2W or no P2W. ArcheAge is the game which has the most *actual* P2W currently, and Rift is going the same way, but they are financially still very succesful and have a lot of people playing them. Same with Tera: It's nowhere near dead. En Masse is basically funding *everything* off their Tera revenue at the moment. I have no clue where you're getting the idea from that these games are dead, or even dying.

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I agree, millionaires can and might cash in 50k and more on dyes. However, there are very little of such players and a handful of them will not impact PvP. They are probably split across both regions and all 3 servers.

Even if there were 10 millionaires on each server, it would not affect the balance much. Instead, it is filling Daums pockets which can only be positive for the entire community.

Hopefully they will not add more sellable cash shop items, but that is where we have to stand up as a community and protest, same as we did pre-launch when we didn't want sellable cash shop items and certain items not in the cash shop. We were unite, and it worked.

This is true, there aren't many so called whales out there that can afford to spend 100k+ on this game, atleast i hope not.

But as long as it doesn't go any further than this i will still play the game. If this game turns into the Korean version i will quit because it defeats the purpose why we play MMO's in the first place.

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honestly i' am done reading your posts because they make no sense. You don't understand the term P2W. you have proven this over and over and over. This will be my last quote to you in this thread..because i' am tired of repeating myself. And tired of explaining why you are so very wrong.

I agree, i can make way more money grinding at sausan's than the average person with a medium sized wallet could buying dyes. I understand this and came to an understanding that it wont impact the game(much).

But you have to agree that people with millions of dollars can spend a hundred thousand on the game and get a pretty significant advantage. But whatever. It is what it is. But i will say one last thing, if more items become available on cash shop for huge amounts of silver this game is doomed.

You haven't explained anything. *You* are the one constantly repeating yourself without giving a single informed argument.

And yes, i agree, i'll also be done reading your posts because it actually feels like i'm talking to a wall at this point. You have yet to reply to any of my arguments with an actual counter argument, and you seem to have no grasp whatsoever of how the game's economy, or even any economy, works, as well as stating outright lies as facts.

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1. Buying cash shop items to sell them is not P2W, as you don't buy resources directly and are completely dependant on other players to buy your stuff.

 

2. You also seem to fail to realize the enormously vast difference between buying silver directly and buying an item to sell ingame for silver... And you're ignoring the positive coming from this: More money for the game, more money for content, and ways for people who don't have as much real money to get cash shop items. Literally everyone wins.

 

3. You only seem to be opposing this with a single argument: "It's not fair." But what, exactly, is not fair? Whales can't buy levels, they can't buy skill, they can't buy a community or a guild, they can't buy friends and they can't buy the necessary time to get the basic things like energy and CP.

 

4.  Or do you want to make the argument that just because you can spend 80 hours a week playing this game, everyone else should too or stop playing?

1.This is self-deception. This is pure p2w. You spend real money and you get resources. You can use this resources to get good in game items (weapons, accessories, armors) WITHOUT REAL IN GAME ACTIVITY

2. If the price of new content is lose "Not p2w" game I don't need it. If I want this kind of hypocrite p2w system I don't switch from archeage to BDO. The problem is not the "selling optional" things. This all small backstabbing actions of Publishers are  only the part of "small steps to destroy the fun and good game" plan.

Customers: . "Oh, this is just optional. Publishers: "oh, they eat it. Next step!" We can buy costume with stats. Customers: "'Oh, this is small change only" Publishers:  Oh, they eat it? Next step. Sell items to raise chance of enchant and make this item  part of the marketplace system! Oh, small thing. They eat it. Next step... In the end we will get "not so good game" with pure p2w cash shop like in other 1-2 dozens same MMO games in korea or in NA/EU.  No, thanks

 

3. This is not fair play. Whales can double the chance to get good  horse (high tier horse with good skills: breeding reset). Whales can prevent XP loss (tears, = faster character leveling. Higher character level = advantage). Whales can use slots that are disable in non pay2win users and give us advantages (REAL costumes, not in game fake costumes). You pay more you can hide your name and you will have high chance to attack 1st (treant costume).  You pay more and you can store more item in farming time, you can get more and better pets to pick up drops. You pay = you get more energy in offline characters, you get more energy in RM bed.

This things are many small things, but all this crap have external source only. You can't farm them in game. My preorder pack gave me the big part of buffs, but the system is not fair.

 

4. this is the final bullshit when you run out of arguments. If you don't have time you don't chose game where you have to spend more time. Or you enjoy the game and you don't have to be "competitive": Or the game is good and you can"'t get "unlimited"  advantage if you play 20 hours /day. De4vs can give to players limited time buffs example.  If you  don"t have time to play why do you want destroy the game?

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You haven't explained anything. *You* are the one constantly repeating yourself without giving a single informed argument.

And yes, i agree, i'll also be done reading your posts because it actually feels like i'm talking to a wall at this point. You have yet to reply to any of my arguments with an actual counter argument, and you seem to have no grasp whatsoever of how the game's economy, or even any economy, works, as well as stating outright lies as facts.

Actually one last quote. You are an absolute idiot.

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Actually one last quote. You are an absolute idiot.

Thus proving my point....

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I agree, millionaires can and might cash in 50k and more on dyes. However, there are very little of such players and a handful of them will not impact PvP. They are probably split across both regions and all 3 servers.

Even if there were 10 millionaires on each server, it would not affect the balance much. Instead, it is filling Daums pockets which can only be positive for the entire community.

Hopefully they will not add more sellable cash shop items, but that is where we have to stand up as a community and protest, same as we did pre-launch when we didn't want sellable cash shop items and certain items not in the cash shop. We were unite, and it worked.

This pretty much explains my thoughts as well. The only bad thing about this is that it could potentially be the start of a downward spiral, but as it is  currently, it is fine.

Personally, I think that this is (kind of) the way things should be. Part of the purpose of an in-game cash shop is to mitigate the gap between players who have a ton of time to play and players who have responsibilities (like a job) that prevent them from playing as much as they'd like to, as long as they're willing to spend a bit of moneys on the game. Another thing I'd like to point out is that, ideally (in my opinion, at least), a cash shop should be structured in such a way that you can't tell whether that one player with nice things actually spent moneys to get those things or not, so there's no shame and nothing to argue about either way, and it shouldn't matter whether they spent money to get those things or not because they have little to no actual impact on gameplay anyway.

So yes, paying players being able to provide other players, who aren't inclined to spend extra money in a cash shop, with cash shop items, is fine, as long as paying players can't make an exorbitant amount of silver this way (at least without spending an exorbitant amount of moneys). I just hope Daum keeps this in check and doesn't take it any further without a lot of careful thought and planning.

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even if they went up to 30mil like in other versions i wouldnt see that as much of a p2w honestly specially since only like 3 dyes go for that much and thats not including 35% tax and its pretty hard to get either of those 3 dyes also gives a way for plebs to look swaggy Horses r way more p2w imo

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Posted (edited)

1.This is self-deception. This is pure p2w. You spend real money and you get resources. You can use this resources to get good in game items (weapons, accessories, armors) WITHOUT REAL IN GAME ACTIVITY

2. If the price of new content is lose "Not p2w" game I don't need it. If I want this kind of hypocrite p2w system I don't switch from archeage to BDO. The problem is not the "selling optional" things. This all small backstabbing actions of Publishers are  only the part of "small steps to destroy the fun and good game" plan.

Customers: . "Oh, this is just optional. Publishers: "oh, they eat it. Next step!" We can buy costume with stats. Customers: "'Oh, this is small change only" Publishers:  Oh, they eat it? Next step. Sell items to raise chance of enchant and make this item  part of the marketplace system! Oh, small thing. They eat it. Next step... In the end we will get "not so good game" with pure p2w cash shop like in other 1-2 dozens same MMO games in korea or in NA/EU.  No, thanks

 

3. This is not fair play. Whales can double the chance to get good  horse (high tier horse with good skills: breeding reset). Whales can prevent XP loss (tears, = faster character leveling. Higher character level = advantage). Whales can use slots that are disable in non pay2win users and give us advantages (REAL costumes, not in game fake costumes). You pay more you can hide your name and you will have high chance to attack 1st (treant costume).  You pay more and you can store more item in farming time, you can get more and better pets to pick up drops. You pay = you get more energy in offline characters, you get more energy in RM bed.

This things are many small things, but all this crap have external source only. You can't farm them in game. My preorder pack gave me the big part of buffs, but the system is not fair.

 

4. this is the final bullshit when you run out of arguments. If you don't have time you don't chose game where you have to spend more time. Or you enjoy the game and you don't have to be "competitive": Or the game is good and you can"'t get "unlimited"  advantage if you play 20 hours /day. De4vs can give to players limited time buffs example.  If you  don"t have time to play why do you want destroy the game?

1) You can never "win" when the 'advantage' consists of, eventually, being on equal footing with other players. Yes, you can buy a +15 weapon with the silver you earned from selling a cash shop item, if a) you can even sell it, b) you get enough silver for it and c) there is a +15 weapon on sale.

What do you suppose happens when 2 people fight with equal gear, but one of them has actual skills from playing the game? 

P2W is, as i explained before, the situation when you can buy a +25 weapon with real money from the cash shop, and ONLY from the cash shop, whereas you can never get past +20 using ingame means. This is a REAL advantage that non-paying players will never achieve.

However, being able to sell cosmetic items for ingame cash is not even guaranteed to get you on equal footing with other players, and will never actually get you past them, since you're still limited by what those players provide you (the silver and items do not appear out of thin air, as i explained before).

2) You are correct here, up to a point. It is something 'publishers can get away with'. But that is the cold, harsh reality of game development and funding. Reading the financial reports once in a while from various companies, the actual profit they're making is not as high as you might think, and most publishers need this supplemental income to survive and grow the product. It may not be 'correct' , but sadly, necessary, since the market is very overcrowded with games right now (some even say it's a bubble which is about to burst, like it did in '83). I don't necessarily like it (as i keep saying, i don't actually engage in the activity), but it's a reality of how the finances of a videogame work. Removing cash shop sales won't magically bring in double or triple the amount of players needed to fill that revenue gap.

3) This is, actually *currently* the case. When you can sell cash shop items on the marketplace, normal players will be able to buy those items as well since they don't need to buy them with real money. That said, i do think the breeding reset and elion's tear items should be removed (check my post history... I've been upset over the state of the cash shop with this to say the least), but when you can sell those cash shop items ingame, it means people will be able to get them using ingame means only. So yes, i do admit that the current cash shop has P2W items in it, as defined by point 1), which i would love to see removed. 

4) This ties into point 2). The average (money spending, crucially) gamer is, anno 2016, closer to 40 than 30. This also means that they have less time to game (most of them are still employed at fulltime jobs), and unlike the stereotype of the 80's and 90's like to paint it, gamers aren't the 'basement at parents' type of people without other obligations outside of work. Since this is the demographic which actually has the money to spend on games like BDO, the game's business model is geared towards it. Again, a sad (?) reality of the current world we live in. When removing the cash shop as a whole, you don't magically conjure up twice or three times the current player base to fill the revenue gap, especially when one of the requirements is 'to grind for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week' to "enjoy" the game. You can't sell that, at least not anymore, given the budget these games work with.

 

 

Lastly: Just to clarify, i don't actually want to see this happen. I'm not arguing that being able to sell cash shop items on the marketplace should be allowed, i'm arguing that if it is, it's nowhere near as big of a problem as people claim it would be. It won't stop me from enjoying the game, whether i engage in the activity or not.

Edited by MChrome

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MChrome: your arguments are invalid. You used  comparison of irrelevant datas. If we want to check the effect of real money we have to use "all other factor stay unchanged" system. We have two totally equal player (A and B). They start the game. Player A invest real money (RM is external resources and you can'"t farm it in game system). Player B don't use RM. Player A can buy item and sell it in marketplace, than use this in game resources to buy better items (armor, weapon). If this 2 players play PvP player B will lose. If we check invested time:player A reach the power of "older" characters in day0. Example: Player A pay100 dollars and he can buy lvl 15 armors and yuria weapon. This character "power" will be enable for player B after 2-3 weeks.  Summary: Player A do fcking nothing in game, juts used not in game resources and he get advantage vs same players. This players (Player B in  example) lose PvP. ALL TIME. If Player B can win additional RM can handle this issue.

 

And yes. This is clear, strong and disgusting p2w. System doesn't have to offer high-end gear directly or offer not in game but strong tems to be p2w trash. Bigger container, same content.

Edited by Mikroman

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MChrome: your arguments are invalid. You used  comparison of irrelevant datas. If we want to check the effect of real money we have to use "all other factor stay unchanged" system. We have two totally equal player (A and B). They start the game. Player A invest real money (RM is external resources and you can'"t farm it in game system). Player B don't use RM. Player A can buy item and sell it in marketplace, than use this in game resources to buy better items (armor, weapon). If this 2 players play PvP player B will lose. If we check invested time:player A reach the power of "older" characters in day0. Example: Player A pay100 dollars and he can buy lvl 15 armors and yuria weapon. This character "power" will be enable for player B after 2-3 weeks.  Summary: Player A do fcking nothing in game, juts used not in game resources and he get advantage vs same players. This players (Player B in  example) lose PvP. ALL TIME. If Player B can win additional RM can handle this issue.

 

And yes. This is clear, strong and disgusting p2w. System doesn't have to offer high-end gear directly or offer not in game but strong tems to be p2w trash. Bigger container, same content.

This is a purely hypothetical argument which will never happen in the real world. It assumes that those players will be on their own on their private server and have the ultimate goal of defeating only each other, with no external factors involved. As such i don't really see this as a valid argument in this game, in its current state. The reality is that this is not a game where you can look at one player in isolation, because of the way the game works, and the state of the current population.

Do remember that even if the game was empty, this wouldn't work. I clearly remember the early days of the marketplace, where hardly anything was for sale, and hardly anyone had the silver to buy anything. Even if you did buy cash shop items, you couldn't sell them, unless it was for bargain prices that would make the purchase useless. And even if they did get silver, no one even had a lot of blackstones for sale, never mind +15 weapons or armor. 

Also remember that the main competitive activity in this game is a group activity. Sure, a whale can buy his gear (again, if available), but it doesn't buy him skill, nor influence to actually join a group which will take (and keep!) him around.

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How is a dye a "Pay to win" feature? O.o 

What do you win, looking fabulous? Then I guess you're winning! 

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How is a dye a "Pay to win" feature? O.o 

What do you win, looking fabulous? Then I guess you're winning! 

You can convert your real money to in game silver using dye packs. Black dye generate 7,3 kkk silver This is 4,7KKK income for real money users. Other dyes are cheaper, but million silver level items

 

= real money users can use +6-10 000 000 000 silvers in last days.

 

MChrome: no. This is show you that you can invert real money to invested time. And time is the most important factor in game. If you are late and you reach payed level after 3 weaks you are dead in competitive game.

Edited by Mikroman

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You can convert your real money to in game silver using dye packs. Black dye generate 7,3 kkk silver This is 4,7KKK income for real money users. Other dyes are cheaper, but million silver level items

And...what do you win? I don't think even a trillionaire can snipe a Kzarka or Liverto just for having money. Also, this is no game changer, the people that are going to beat you in PvP will do so no matter how rich you are. Also, it doesn't even affect guilds or node wars since most of the funding comes from the guild bank which doesn't accept personal funds anyway. So again, what do you "win"?

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And...what do you win? I don't think even a trillionaire can snipe a Kzarka or Liverto just for having money. Also, this is no game changer, the people that are going to beat you in PvP will do so no matter how rich you are. Also, it doesn't even affect guilds or node wars since most of the funding comes from the guild bank which doesn't accept personal funds anyway. So again, what do you "win"?

Time. If you can invest +5-10-20-300 million silvers after your real money usage you can generate real in game advantage. You can buy good accessories, armors in short time. And you can gamble more to get real OP items.

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Time. If you can invest +5-10-20-300 million silvers after your real money usage you can generate real in game advantage. You can buy good accessories, armors in short time. And you can gamble more to get real OP items.

Honestly, if the RNG wasn't as absurd as what we got, I would say, yes real advantage, but honestly the amount of revenue coming out dyes compared with the amount of money you would be throwing in the garbage to upgrade or get the fail stacks (and even then there's a risk) is just not even worth it. I would say that it can help in case you already got a Kzarka and need the memory fragments to keep upgrading it.
I honestly don;t think selling dyes is that much of a game changer, plus remember, you have to get lucky to get the ones that sell at cap, it's not all of them.

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Honestly, if the RNG wasn't as absurd as what we got, I would say, yes real advantage, but honestly the amount of revenue coming out dyes compared with the amount of money you would be throwing in the garbage to upgrade or get the fail stacks (and even then there's a risk) is just not even worth it. I would say that it can help in case you already got a Kzarka and need the memory fragments to keep upgrading it.I honestly don;t think selling dyes is that much of a game changer, plus remember, you have to get lucky to get the ones that sell at cap, it's not all of them.

No. You have to spend more money maybe. Bigger sample = less rng. :)

Edited by Mikroman

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@MChrome: In case you're wondering if the whole world has gone crazy because of the people you've had to respond to, your arguments are very clear and understandable.  They're also valid.

I'm sitting on 90 million silver as a casual who doesn't do AFK activities because I sold a Tree Spirit armor (I don't play enough to want to worry about upgrading it), and I can't buy anything that I want, really.  I want a +15 Liverto Axe, and I want an Ancient Weapon Core belt.  Neither are ever really available, so the money I have amounts to not much, unless I want to get into the accessory upgrading game on my Witch's Earrings.  Which I don't care to right now.

And even if I did, I could still get iced by RNG, even playing the failstack game properly.  I just hate the failstack game because it's RNG to try to help your RNG, so I'm not willing to spend 24 million silver on an attempt for 2 extra AP.

Money doesn't spontaneously generate good items in-game, and purchasing dyes doesn't even create inflation in the economy.  And if pumping accessories to Tri with some unlimiited pool of silver really destabilizes the game that much, then the game is designed terribly to begin with.  That's just what I think, anyway.

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