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p2w vs p2progress

42 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

One is locking something behind a paywall (certain armor or pet or ap boosting items which u will never or rarely get in game without paying)and the other one is enabling to progress faster by cashing in getting the things done faster than the nonpaying ppl that have more time. The 2nd one should be in the game for dev income paying servers and stuff. Didnt log in a while bit i doubt the sell exp boost in cashshop.

Edited by nocte
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Posted (edited)

p2progress is worse than p2w. You can't progress/play in a game if you can't pay compared to not winning a game if you don't pay but still able to play. Last time I checked, you can't really "win" in an MMO (✿◡‿◡)

Edited by Aethernal

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Posted

You dont have to pay anything (except buying the game to start the progress i guess) to make constant progress in this game.

It will be slower for sure but you are not shot in the leg or something from the basic game without paying.

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p2progress is worse than p2w. You can't progress/play in a game if you can't pay compared to not winning a game if you don't pay but still able to play. Last time I checked, you can't really "win" in an MMO (✿◡‿◡)

I hate when people do this. While yes, you cannot "win" in an MMO, the definition of P2W is rather simple. 

I believe what he meants by P2Progress is progress faster. Example, an exp scroll. While, it will technically one can say that paying for EXP scrolls is P2W, since they will have to train less, it falls more in the p2progress(faster) which helps some of us with jobs and others things stay in the game.

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Posted

Why would you want p2w or p2progress mechanics in B2P game? I'm baffled by how gaming community agrees to that stuff.

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Posted

In a game heavily based on your character's gear, p2progress equals to p2w.

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Posted

Why would you want p2w or p2progress mechanics in B2P game? I'm baffled by how gaming community agrees to that stuff.

If it wss for me, I onlywant sub. And only cash shop is mounts or pets for charity only cosmatic without stats..

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Why would you want p2w or p2progress mechanics in B2P game? I'm baffled by how gaming community agrees to that stuff.

P2Progress(faster) items aren't usually bad. Since they only help through the mid-game stage, and often serves more as a catch up mechanic, more than a "get me ahead" mechanic.

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Posted (edited)

P2Progress(faster) items aren't usually bad. Since they only help through the mid-game stage, and often serves more as a catch up mechanic, more than a "get me ahead" mechanic.

So how you will block access to those items for people that are at the top atm? Don't forget, this game doesnt have level cap, you can lvl welll pass 60. It will just create wider gap between levels, more qq, more requits, you know the drill.

Another point is, you are forcing everyone at the top to buy those items, to still stay at top.

Edited by Alisteli

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Posted

Same shit disguised under different wording, stop fooling yourself

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So how you will block access to those items for people that are at the top atm? Don't forget, this game doesnt have level cap, you can lvl welll pass 60. It will just create wider gap between levels, more qq, more requits, you know the drill.

Another point is, you are forcing everyone at the top to buy those items, to still stay at top.

Because a 10-20% exp scroll would do nothing to a current level 58. If someone was going to make the grind 60+ they would do it with or without the extra percent they could get from that. 

Say it takes someone 20 hours to get from 60 to 61(counting all in-game possible buffs already). Do you think 2-4 hours would discourage them if they were willing to put up the 20 hours?

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Because a 10-20% exp scroll would do nothing to a current level 58. If someone was going to make the grind 60+ they would do it with or without the extra percent they could get from that. 

Say it takes someone 20 hours to get from 60 to 61(counting all in-game possible buffs already). Do you think 2-4 hours would discourage them if they were willing to put up the 20 hours?

Mate, the more hours it takes for each 1%, the more meaningful each 1% is. 20% scroll that will cut out 100h or even more of ur grind from 60-61 is game breaking. Think few mins about it, and then say sorry how silly you just were.

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Posted

I can't wait for the cash shop RNG loot boxes, this forum is gonna be hilarious, and it's coming. 

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Mate, the more hours it takes for each 1%, the more meaningful each 1% is. 20% scroll that will cut out 100h or even more of ur grind from 60-61 is game breaking. Think few mins about it, and then say sorry how silly you just were.

I am not saying that it wouldn't be more meaningful, I am simply saying that if someone was going to put up with 400h of grinding, an extra 100h will not change their mind.

Sure, they will get there faster, but it could help people with other things going on in their lives to catch up. It's not a big deal to me, I would buy them if they are out, not care if they are not released. 

The BDO community is so scared of P2W they are quick to call anything P2W. I've come from P2W games, and a simply exp scroll or item that gives you instant +20 wouldn't hurt anything. (That last one was a joke)

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Posted (edited)

I can't wait for the cash shop RNG loot boxes, this forum is gonna be hilarious, and it's coming. 

beware of my mighty credit card then muhahahhaa.

lets be real the game is good but the progressions system is killing it. we wouldnt need all the stupid discussions about catchup pvp and gear and p2w. if they would have made the lvl system different right from the beginning i knew there gonna be problem but ppl kept telling me that extra lvls dont rly make a difference well it does to much to be honest. so much that some ppl see that its worth to buy bots and hacks to shorten it. people expected rather a sandbox mmo which didnt force unfun stuff on u and u could play the way u want and still participate in pvp and sieges. well seems like the more hardcore u are in just killing braindead mobs for hours the better u are in pvp currently which doesnt make sense and is a stupid game design which is recognized nowadays in the gaming industry as mentioned before by me for example some games simply seperate pvp gear from pve gear. it aint to hard to implement a pvp gear which stats u can change. we allready have some sort of pvp gear which would be the yuria with +human dmg u could just remove the dmg of the staff completely and give it only human dmg so its only usefull in pvp for example u can make a similar solution to the rest of the gear.

but noooo all these hackers and botters and the hardcore nolifers and game mechanic abusers will show up and be against it

Edited by nocte

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Posted (edited)

One is locking something behind a paywall (certain armor or pet or ap boosting items which u will never or rarely get in game without paying)and the other one is enabling to progress faster by cashing in getting the things done faster than the nonpaying ppl that have more time. The 2nd one should be in the game for dev income paying servers and stuff. Didnt log in a while bit i doubt the sell exp boost in cashshop.

PayToWin? The game company has spent lots of money to change the term, it is now PayToAdvance Faster or PayForConvenience.

Edited by Dhaos

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PayToWin? The game company has spent lots of money to change the term, it is now PayToAdvance or PayForConvience.

i can lock an item that will insta kill u with a certain cd on it behind a paywall which u will never get and so u will never be rly competetive or i can put an exp scroll in the cashshop that lets u catch up to ur friends that have more time than u and play with them together if u sacrifice money instead of time.

one is pay2win and the other one is pay2progress. for example in warframe eveyone calling the system pay to progress since nothing locked just in cashshop and everything can be obtained in game just takes more time.

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i can lock an item that will insta kill u with a certain cd on it behind a paywall which u will never get and so u will never be rly competetive or i can put an exp scroll in the cashshop that lets u catch up to ur friends that have more time than u and play with them together if u sacrifice money instead of time.

one is pay2win and the other one is pay2progress. for example in warframe eveyone calling the system pay to progress since nothing locked just in cashshop and everything can be obtained in game just takes more time.

Your first example is also P2W, but show me an example of which game is doing that now. Unless they really want to be off limited list by almost everyone.

PayToProgress is such a bad term, because you Pay To Progress, meaning people can make fun of it that if you don't pay, you don't progress.

Different games has different P2W element. If you play game with like lv 50 cap, then xp scroll is not a big deal, but if you play game with NO LEVEL CAP, then xp scroll is P2W.

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Posted

Your first example is also P2W, but show me an example of which game is doing that now.

for example in warframe eveyone calling the system pay to progress since nothing locked just in cashshop and everything can be obtained in game just takes more time.

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Posted (edited)

"Pay to Win"  never explicitly was defined as ONLY gaining an advantage that no one else could get *without* paying for.  When Micro-expansions & Microtransactions first started showing up in the early 2000's,  pay 2 win applied to any kind of transaction that other players couldn't catch up to without also paying for it themselves.  

Yes this is actually a "catch up" mechanic THAT SHOULD EXIST (within reason) to ensure that people without jobs (or trust fund kids) don't drastically out-progress everyone else who has to work a real job (or 2 in some cases). But in short order the entire industry went way off the rails and greedy/overly-competitive producers took it to the extreme just to maximize their increased flow of bonus budget to various Studio Departments.  (usually marketing instead of art & world building). 

 

Sometime in the late 2000's some of those same Marketing arseholes started astroturf campaigns to rebrand the definition of "Pay 2 Win", and the Trust Fund kiddies who could play all day AND continue to get way ahead of everyone else were all too happy to help out b/c they didn't have anything else to do all day either except spam Reddit/Neogaf.  The industry had a chance to keep this from being a Class-War but they instead decided to take the easy way out, usually by:

  • Failing to put a reasonable cap on direct Currency-Exchange (usually with the excuse of: "if we don't offer it, Gold Farmers will!").
  • Failing to put reasonable limits on how much ADDITIONAL progress each customer can buy beyond already playing all goddamned day
  • LOWERING the base drop rates, XP values, or unlock Time of all in-game mechanics from the original dev Alpha designs.
  • Rigging the hours it takes to achieve these same things without-paying to a Ratio of 1:10 versus the Microtransaction  

 ... in efect; Equal Time isn't being exchanged for Equal Money,  Money is buying WAY more progress / game currency than Time buys turning one's in-game time conversion into Sweat-Shop wages when compared directly to how much more progress you could make spending that time at a REAL JOB.  And In some cases, the cash shop Server SQL resources + Frequency of updating + "Web-team size" + Promotions for those items has so much human resources dedicated to it that it consumes the vast majority of the money it generates while also stealing resources from the Design & Coding departments who should be focused on the Base game instead of worrying about how they can nerf more rewards and make the base game Gear look WORSE just to incentivize more cash shop sales.

 

When all of these factors are combined, it actually makes Microtransactions into a far more risky (chargebacks), Haphazard, and inefficient model than the more traditional focused-development Expansions or Subscribtion model ever was

Edited by iller
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Posted (edited)

 

 

Seem you don't understand what being ask. I ask you which game lock a certain item that so OP that can 1 shot everyone behind PayWall?

PayToAdvance Faster also includes XP scrolls, Real Money > Ingame Money or CS store selling ingame item.

They are PayToWin, but PayToAdvance Faster sounds better.

Edited by Dhaos

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Posted (edited)

Seem you don't understand what being ask. I ask you which game lock a certain item that so OP that can 1 shot everyone behind PayWall?

PayToAdvance Faster also includes XP scrolls, Real Money > Ingame Money or CS store selling ingame item.

They are PayToWin, but PayToAdvance Faster sounds better.

just look at how gw 2 and swtor lock OP stuff behind paywall called DLC and didnt someone mention u could get the best gear in ArchAge just by cashshop ? i remember older mmos which locked gear behind paywall that gave u stuff like dmg imunity for certain ammount of time for big cd high dmg classes thats pain in the ass

Edited by nocte

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just look at how gw 2 and swtor lock OP stuff behind paywall called DLC and didnt someone mention u could get the best gear in ArchAge just by cashshop ? i remember older mmos which locked gear behind paywall that gave u stuff like dmg imunity for certain ammount of time for big cd high dmg classes thats pain in the ass

LOL, you haven't a clue what you are talking about, I play GW2, it is called expansion. The game is B2P with F2P trial on the original game to attract more people to buy expansion. Not to mention the game behind B2P Paywall for 3 years.

SWOTOR has DLCs, but again do they really popular? Most people just play for storyline or fan.

Yes, older games, some of them did that and thus they are the PayToWin games and that's why stupid people still cling to old definitions of P2W.

However, again, what game right now is using that? It is the question I am asking you now, not in the past since we all know what happened to them.

Clearly you have no idea what being discuss or not even understand it.

As I said again, PayToWin term is shunned by lots of players, that's why game companies popularize the new terms, PayToAdvance Faster or PayForConvience. See, when you see those terms, it is not sound as bad. Players are being lead around like a lamb and didn't even know about it, LOL.

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Posted (edited)

I hate when people do this. While yes, you cannot "win" in an MMO, the definition of P2W is rather simple. 

I believe what he meants by P2Progress is progress faster. Example, an exp scroll. While, it will technically one can say that paying for EXP scrolls is P2W, since they will have to train less, it falls more in the p2progress(faster) which helps some of us with jobs and others things stay in the game.

Although you very much can win in an MMO. p2w used to mean you needed or had advantageous gear from the cash shop to remain competitive or to even be able to progress through a difficult dungeon that cannot be completed without paid for gear. Devs/publishers have been avoiding this kind of thing so they offer the ability to progress faster. Even when you pruchase these progress faster they usually don't guarantee being the absolute best of the best of the best.

just look at how gw 2 and swtor lock OP stuff behind paywall called DLC and didnt someone mention u could get the best gear in ArchAge just by cashshop ? i remember older mmos which locked gear behind paywall that gave u stuff like dmg imunity for certain ammount of time for big cd high dmg classes thats pain in the ass

GW2 has an expansion.

Edited by Raxor
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Posted (edited)

Yes, older games, some of them did that and thus they are the PayToWin games and that's why stupid people still cling to old definitions of P2W.

However, again, what game right now is using that? It is the question I am asking you now, not in the past since we all know what happened to them.

All of Perfect World's proprietary games (Perfect World, Jade Dynasty, War/Battle of the Immortals, etc.). They're all still around with a decent population, and are pretty big in China. Some of them outright sell the best gear exclusively through the cash shop.

Regardless, if it's something that can be reasonably done without paying, it's not pay2win; just look at the term: Pay in order to win. Paying to achieve the same thing non-paying people have doesn't equate to winning, it's just putting you on even ground.

However, once we get +16-20, and with +19-20 being non-forceable, buying silver could feasibly be considered pay2win. KR doesn't have forcing for +16-18 so it won't be as drastic for us, but over there +20s are quite rare so are a huge advantage.

Edited by Zephan

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