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Gear Difference-Daum how will people ever catch up?

124 posts in this topic

Posted

I really don't get you people, i'm making 5-6 shards a day, i don't even buy them, and i don't even consider myself a PvEr to begin with.

It's true i'm putting PvP on hold for a bit, but it's not like BDO is designed to seclude both types of content.  What's the point of playing this game if you're only here for 10% of its content.

You're all too used to these MMOs where devs nicely put PvPers in one box and PvErs in another, and everyone plays in their own schoolyard without ever interacting with each other. There's a lot more to appreciate in BDO than just gearing up and looking for kills, and the same applies the other way around, there's a lot more to enjoy than looking for seagulls and pressing jump at the right time.

I'd really suggest you all to try to diversify your activities and see how much BDO has to offer rather than trying to make it change. Me, i'll be off major PvP for a month or so, meanwhile i'm still having the occasional OWPvP fun even when my only option is to flee, and i'm also using that time to catch up with energy, contribution and lifeskills.

There is so -----ing much to do and everything is enjoyable, i really don't undestand why you guys freak out. Although that's clearly a forum thing, in game people are having a good time.

You are lucky. I spent weeks spending anywhere from 400 to 1000 energy a day and got a grand total of 20 shards. Literally had to tell my guild I could no longer be competitive because rng told me I couldn't be. You know how deflating that is?

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Posted

by making money and grinding...

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You are lucky. I spent weeks spending anywhere from 400 to 1000 energy a day and got a grand total of 20 shards. Literally had to tell my guild I could no longer be competitive because rng told me I couldn't be. You know how deflating that is?

I get that but we're all on the same page with RNG, if i get 5 a day and you 20 in weeks, you must be doing something wrong, and even then, within weeks you should have millions to spend at the AH if all else fails

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Posted

I get that but we're all on the same page with RNG, if i get 5 a day and you 20 in weeks, you must be doing something wrong, and even then, within weeks you should have millions to spend at the AH if all else fails

Typically a day of doing all of that gathering (I've tried everything from blood, timber, sap, all different plants with and without hoes, never gathering water) I'd be lucky to afford one per day. Not nearly what I would call efficient or worth the time and effort. If I wanted to buy them, I would have just went grinding because that nets much better silver. We all have the same rng, but that gap in rng is so large it doesn't reward effort. The RNG in this game feels like the RNG from the Xcom games (really messed up, streaky, and inconsistent) and that is not a good thing.

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Posted (edited)

Typically a day of doing all of that gathering (I've tried everything from blood, timber, sap, all different plants with and without hoes, never gathering water) I'd be lucky to afford one per day. Not nearly what I would call efficient or worth the time and effort. If I wanted to buy them, I would have just went grinding because that nets much better silver. We all have the same rng, but that gap in rng is so large it doesn't reward effort. The RNG in this game feels like the RNG from the Xcom games (really messed up, streaky, and inconsistent) and that is not a good thing.

I was about to say these forums remind me of Darkest Dungeon steam forums. XCOM is fine too.

In RNG games there are two types of players : those who try to bruteforce through % and hope they'll get lucky, and those who learn that you don't fight against RNG, you learn to put yourself in a situation and play the system in a way where a bad roll won't catch you unprepared.

The golden word against RNG is mitigation.

Let's just say that, if spending 1000E a day on gathering doesn't work, why are you all still at it ? Obviously it's inefficient. To follow up on your analogy, it's like taking front pot shots on a full cover highground Thinman at 5% hit chance and hope you will land a crit.

 

 

Edited by muscarine
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Posted

I was about to say these forums remind me of Darkest Dungeon steam forums. XCOM is fine too.

In RNG games there are two types of players : those who try to bruteforce through % and hope they'll get lucky, and those who learn that you don't fight against RNG, you learn to put yourself in a situation and play the system in a way where a bad roll won't catch you unprepared.

The golden word against RNG is mitigation.

Let's just say that, if spending 1000E a day on gathering doesn't work, why are you all still at it ? Obviously it's inefficient.

Because if the game really does reward effort and time (like people say it does), it shouldn't matter what I'm doing to get them, I should be getting them. The fact that I'm not simply counters the people that say it rewards effort and time. BTW, I'm in a situation where a bad roll won't catch me unprepared simply because I have not been able to even get enough of what is needed to make a decent attempt. 

We don't have the same tools that the other areas have to mitigate the rng thanks to their removal from the cash shop (or them just flat out not being available in our game). A person actually thinking through things would have made the rng less pronounced in our version since we lack those tools.

BTW, Xcom does actually use an odd rng formala that leads to multiple misses against things with 95% chances to hit far more often than they should.

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Posted (edited)

Because if the game really does reward effort and time (like people say it does), it shouldn't matter what I'm doing to get them, I should be getting them. The fact that I'm not simply counters the people that say it rewards effort and time. BTW, I'm in a situation where a bad roll won't catch me unprepared simply because I have not been able to even get enough of what is needed to make a decent attempt. 

We don't have the same tools that the other areas have to mitigate the rng thanks to their removal from the cash shop (or them just flat out not being available in our game). A person actually thinking through things would have made the rng less pronounced in our version since we lack those tools.

BTW, Xcom does actually use an odd rng formala that leads to multiple misses against things with 95% chances to hit far more often than they should.

I'm not going into that how XCOM works debate, i disagree but it's pointless and irrelevant.

You confuse rewarding effort and time with rewarding doing it right. You could spend 1500 hours straight of sweat and blood doing it wrong for all i care it doesn't make you eligible for a reward. It's like pity sex. You ask me 1500 times if i wanna sleep with you, if i ever happen to say yes the 1501th time, it's because you were lucky at that point, not because you were unlucky the previous 1500 attempts, and still that's some sad luck.

 

 

Edited by muscarine

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Posted (edited)

I'm not going into that how XCOM works debate, i disagree but it's pointless and irrelevant.

You confuse rewarding effort and time with rewarding doing it right. You could spend 1500 hours straight of sweat and blood doing it wrong for all i care it doesn't make you eligible for a reward. It's like pity sex. You ask me 1500 times if i wanna sleep with you, if i ever happen to say yes the 1501th time, it's because you were lucky at that point, not because you were unlucky the previous 1500 attempts, and still that's some sad luck.

 

 

So if player A and B do the same thing to get shards, spending the same amount, thus putting in the same effort, and player A ends up with far more shards than B, player B was doing something wrong despite doing the same thing as player A who got far more than him? No, the rng variance in this game is just too damn high.

Edited by Noth

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Posted

Imagine the gear progression something like this, where y(x) is your power level and x is the time it takes to get it.

When you start out it's easy to gain extra power, but as you progress it becomes harder and harder (it takes more time to gain smaller and smaller amounts). Ofc, if someone is ahead of you and he plays just as much as you, just as efficiently, then it is kinda impossible to catch up... BUT you will get so close to him in power level that the difference will be negligible. Also: The chances of getting the perfect gear is really small. Probably no one will reach the expected value of trials to reach the max enchant on the bis gear in every slot. Thus... with some luck, you might even be able to overtake the top players if you play just as much. But the difference will still be negligible.

I haven't done the exact math though. This is just a rough estimation, but I don't think I am mistaken.

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Posted

So if player A and B do the same thing to get shards, spending the same amount, thus putting in the same effort, and player A ends up with far more shards than B, player B was doing something wrong despite doing the same thing as player A who got far more than him? No, the rng variance in this game is just too damn high.

No, you're assuming player A and B do the same thing when in fact, they don't

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Posted

No, you're assuming player A and B do the same thing when in fact, they don't

My self and a guild mate for the most part gathered the same things, Often in the same area at the exact same time. They ended up with far more than I did despite putting in similar amounts of time doing the same things. The example, is what i have experienced in this game. You cannot tell me that I was doing something wrong.

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Posted (edited)

In RNG games there are two types of players : those who try to bruteforce through % and hope they'll get lucky, and those who learn that you don't fight against RNG, you learn to put yourself in a situation and play the system in a way where a bad roll won't catch you unprepared.

The golden word against RNG is mitigation.

Let's just say that, if spending 1000E a day on gathering doesn't work, why are you all still at it ? Obviously it's inefficient. To follow up on your analogy, it's like taking front pot shots on a full cover highground Thinman at 5% hit chance and hope you will land a crit.

Pretty much this. RNG depends on chance and sample.

In cases like high level enchanting, RNG screws you over hard. If you fail 17->18 20x, I only feel sympathy for you.

In cases like gathering where you have a moderate success rate over a large sample, if a difference exists, either you're doing something wrong or someone's being dishonest.

Edited by Featherine
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Posted

Pretty much this. RNG depends on chance and sample.

In cases like high level enchanting, RNG screws you over hard. If you fail 17->18 20x, I only feel sympathy for you.

In cases like gathering where you have a moderate success rate over a large sample, if a difference exists, either you're doing something wrong or someone's being dishonest.

Entirely agree ! And shard drops are still rather new in our version, people are kinda lost, guides and actual informations are hard to come by (especially on these forums...), i can say from actual personal experience people are missing crucial informations. And people aren't really willing to share because preserving the power gap is currently one of the best ways to stay at the top.

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Posted

I get that but we're all on the same page with RNG, if i get 5 a day and you 20 in weeks, you must be doing something wrong, and even then, within weeks you should have millions to spend at the AH if all else fails

You can't "do something wrong" when RNG doesn't work in your favor.  Why in the world would you even say that? 

Seriously...that's a ridiculous statement to make.

 

I'm an artisan gatherer.  I spend the bulk of my time doing lifestyle stuff when I'm not Pvping.  I didn't get enough shards to get to duo, let alone tri.  I did EVERYTHING you could to get them, and that meant 1000+ energy a day for a month. 
 

No, setting up 9 alts with 20 failstacks each is not how you're "supposed" to do it.  I want my failstacks for the things I really need them for, my accessories, not my armor. I should be using the failstacks from trying to get PRI/ DUO on my gear to get the failstacks for my rings, necklace, earings, belt, not so that I can get my boots to PRI which isn't where the real advantage is at. 

I no life the shit out of the game.  Quit telling people they did something wrong when they get screwed by a RANDOM number generator, it's an incredibly stupid thing to say to someone and comes across as nothing but arrogance. 

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Posted

You can't "do something wrong" when RNG doesn't work in your favor.  Why in the world would you even say that? 
Seriously...that's a ridiculous statement to make.

 

I'm an artisan gatherer.  I spend the bulk of my time doing lifestyle stuff when I'm not Pvping.  I didn't get enough shards to get to duo, let alone tri.  I did EVERYTHING you could to get them, and that meant 1000+ energy a day for a month. 
 

No, setting up 9 alts with 20 failstacks each is not how you're "supposed" to do it.  I want my failstacks for the things I really need them for, my accessories, not my armor. I should be using the failstacks from trying to get PRI/ DUO on my gear to get the failstacks for my rings, necklace, earings, belt, not so that I can get my boots to PRI which isn't where the real advantage is at. 

I no life the shit out of the game.  Quit telling people they did something wrong when they get screwed by a RANDOM number generator, it's an incredibly stupid thing to say to someone and comes across as nothing but arrogance. 

Hahahahaha

You're angry, and you're bad

Keep at it !

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Posted (edited)

Hahahahaha

You're angry, and you're bad

Keep at it !

"Random numbers didn't go in your favor, you did something wrong"

Say something else stupid, and think it makes you smart...

How many days did you spend over 1000 energy to get no shards? 

Edited by fariic@yahoo.com

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Posted

"Random numbers didn't go in your favor, you did something wrong"
Say something else stupid, and think it makes you smart...

:)

Considering the quality of your overall posts, i'm not really surprised your brain bounces on the concept though. But hey, keep spreading tears and anger around the forums instead of working on the system, meanwhile i'll start building myself a swimming pool of shards. That's what you guys do best. Fill the forum with trash and shitposts to the point where it's entirely unusable and void of any kind of informations. If you spam it enough it should become true, right ?

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Posted (edited)

Entirely agree ! And shard drops are still rather new in our version, people are kinda lost, guides and actual informations are hard to come by (especially on these forums...), i can say from actual personal experience people are missing crucial informations. And people aren't really willing to share because preserving the power gap is currently one of the best ways to stay at the top.

Unfortunately that's the current situation. A lot of misinformation and people not willing to share secrets. Can't blame them with how the game is set up, I'm guilty of that myself. If this was another game, I would have already uploaded a lot of analytic data and spreadsheet calculators.

You can't "do something wrong" when RNG doesn't work in your favor.  Why in the world would you even say that? 
Seriously...that's a ridiculous statement to make.

 

I'm an artisan gatherer.  I spend the bulk of my time doing lifestyle stuff when I'm not Pvping.  I didn't get enough shards to get to duo, let alone tri.  I did EVERYTHING you could to get them, and that meant 1000+ energy a day for a month. 
 

No, setting up 9 alts with 20 failstacks each is not how you're "supposed" to do it.  I want my failstacks for the things I really need them for, my accessories, not my armor. I should be using the failstacks from trying to get PRI/ DUO on my gear to get the failstacks for my rings, necklace, earings, belt, not so that I can get my boots to PRI which isn't where the real advantage is at. 

I no life the shit out of the game.  Quit telling people they did something wrong when they get screwed by a RANDOM number generator, it's an incredibly stupid thing to say to someone and comes across as nothing but arrogance. 

What is the probability of getting 45-55% heads on 1 coin toss? 0%.

What's the probability of getting 45-55% heads on 1,000,000 coin tosses? Essentially 100%.

If in the latter case you're not getting almost exactly 50%, then you've basically proven the coin is rigged. However, even with a rigged coin, if I'm getting more heads than you are with the same coin over 1,000,000 tosses, then you suck at the game lol.

Edited by Featherine

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Posted

We had just reached a point where people were starting to catch up with their gear.  Now with this last patch the gear differential is huge.

Daum and PA how do you expect the average player to ever have a chance in this game? 

I asked this earlier in regards to guilds.  Explain to me how a guild that does not get a castle can compete with those that do.  Income for a castle is around 100 million a day.  There is no way in game for a guild to come close to that number even with the silver sinks with elephants and guild houses.

I am amazed that the game has survived as long as it has in KR.   Right now it looks like this one is headed the wrong way and fast.

 

You're feeling the crunch of an accelerated content release cycle.  In KR, these updates were farther apart, allowing for gear plateauing.  We'll be fine, folks just need to be patient and let the system operate.

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Posted

You are lucky. I spent weeks spending anywhere from 400 to 1000 energy a day and got a grand total of 20 shards. Literally had to tell my guild I could no longer be competitive because rng told me I couldn't be. You know how deflating that is?

Daum mentioned Valencia update back at their interview to be the end of June...that simply says your guild had no one dedicated to the game whatsoever, even worse...that none even bothered watching a small video or reading the forums to help their guild. However while burning 400-1k energy a day, maybe you should lower your average post rate to grind and snipe when you run out of energy.  

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Daum mentioned Valencia update back at their interview to be the end of June...that simply says your guild had no one dedicated to the game whatsoever, even worse...that none even bothered watching a small video or reading the forums to help their guild. However while burning 400-1k energy a day, maybe you should lower your average post rate to grind and snipe when you run out of energy.  

My guild actually has some very geared players. They've been planning around it since the game basically started. Can't really help your guild mates with things that require they themselves to gather. Best you can do is point them in the direction and hope that rng treats them well.

As for my post count, I've been actively participating and pushing for many changes to improve the game since the first beta (and alpha, but that forum was wiped) wanting this game to actually be more than a Korean grinder as Daum themselves said they wanted to adapt it for the western audience (and even recently stated things such as lessening gear gap). Sadly, most suggestion to adapt the game to the western audience has fallen on deaf ears, even the most supported ideas. 

Funny you mention sniping shards... that once again comes down to pure rng. Mitigate RNG with more RNG!

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Posted

My guild actually has some very geared players. They've been planning around it since the game basically started. Can't really help your guild mates with things that require they themselves to gather. Best you can do is point them in the direction and hope that rng treats them well.

As for my post count, I've been actively participating and pushing for many changes to improve the game since the first beta (and alpha, but that forum was wiped) wanting this game to actually be more than a Korean grinder as Daum themselves said they wanted to adapt it for the western audience (and even recently stated things such as lessening gear gap). Sadly, most suggestion to adapt the game to the western audience has fallen on deaf ears, even the most supported ideas. 

Funny you mention sniping shards... that once again comes down to pure rng. Mitigate RNG with more RNG!

"Adapt the game to western audience" is such an elegant way to say turn it into entirely something else. There are a lot of us who like it this way, it doesn't mean it's perfect, but the whole equalize/reward/noRNG spamfest the forums currently incure is way off the point.

BDO lives of its intrinsic imbalances, you remove that you start by killing the AH and progressively everything just dies. No it's not GW3 or WoW's 438136th expansion, thanksfully.

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Posted (edited)

"Adapt the game to western audience" is such an elegant way to say turn it into entirely something else. There are a lot of us who like it this way, it doesn't mean it's perfect, but the whole equalize/reward/noRNG spamfest the forums currently incure is way off the point.

BDO lives of its intrinsic imbalances, you remove that you start by killing the AH and progressively everything just dies. No it's not GW3 or WoW's 438136th expansion, thanksfully.

Adapting to the western audience doesn't mean having to change the game to something else entirely. It is extremely ignorant to think that. I mean we have a different cash shop, different PvE difficulty, different karma system. Less emphasis on RNG is not going to make the game something else entirely.

AH is already a trash heap. Massive inflation, horribly off priced items, completely biased mechanics, and reliance on RNG. The AH is in a condition that every other MMORPG would write it off as dead and be doing something to counter the inflation and flaws of the system if they haven't just gave up on it.

No one is asking this to be WoW or GW2 when it comes to this issue. People are simply asking for effort and time spent to actually mean something rather than the rng allowing someone who spent less time to get ahead of you simply because rng favored them more than you. This would not only make more players happier, but also make PvP more competitive.

This game will not meet Daum's wish of a growing playerbase (seriously, they wanted to reach greater than 500k concurrent players in the west) by doing what they continue to do. This game will just go down the road of another Korean grinder.

Edited by Noth

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Posted

Adapting to the western audience doesn't mean having to change the game to something else entirely. It is extremely ignorant to think that. I mean we have a different cash shop, different PvE difficulty, different karma system. Less emphasis on RNG is not going to make the game something else entirely.

AH is already a trash heap. Massive inflation, horribly off priced items, completely biased mechanics, and reliance on RNG. The AH is in a condition that every other MMORPG would write it off as dead and be doing something to counter the inflation and flaws of the system if they haven't just gave up on it.

No one is asking this to be WoW or GW2 when it comes to this issue. People are simply asking for effort and time spent to actually mean something rather than the rng allowing someone who spent less time to get ahead of you simply because rng favored them more than you. This would not only make more players happier, but also make PvP more competitive.

This game will not meet Daum's wish of a growing playerbase (seriously, they wanted to reach greater than 500k concurrent players in the west) by doing what they continue to do. This game will just go down the road of another Korean grinder.

"Extremely ignorant" is applicable to your own status regarding your complete subjectivity, the fact is the mechanics changes you demand are the opposite of BDO's foundations.

"biased mechanics" "rewards" "every other MMO" etc etc etc, an absolutely meaningless "adapt to the western audience" when in fact you mean me, me, me. All of you throwing self entitled temper tantrum out there in this cemetery of a forum. You guys remind me of how the movie industry feels compelled to do remakes of movies barely a couple years old, because hey, the original is lithuanian, so let's make a "westernised" version because surely, people would hate it otherwise.

I'm not even saying you want it easy although there's a bit of that, i believe you, i believe you're convinced you don't want it easy.

I rest my case, you're asking for a clone, you want to swim in the same stale known waters, disregarding the fact that it works perfectly well as it is - spare the technical issues, bug fixing, and none gear related pvp balance WIP which are an entirely other matter. But no surely you don't want WoW or GW or SWTOR or whatever else, despites asking for the very same mechanics to be frankensteined into the game for your own leasure. The point is, this is all you know, people don't want different or new, they want the same exact stuff with a different skin and better performances. And cheaper. It's like marketing 101.

And the game will die and so forth. It's like hearing a 5yo kid asking for candy and when you say no, he tells you he will suicide because of you. You want to discuss, fine, but that's absolutely irrelevant, nonfactual, uneducated, subjective, narrowminded and boring. Players like you have no idea how this very kind of imbalances creates inertia. You want to remove it ? You shut the game's internal clockwork momentum.

And all of this based on the fact that you can't figure out how to gather shards properly. It's crazy.

TL;DR : i'm bored now, not interested in this stalemate conversation anymore, you guys aren't looking for discussions anyway. Go form a circle and keep jerking each other off until the next strangely familiar MMO is released.

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"Extremely ignorant" is applicable to your own status regarding your complete subjectivity, the fact is the mechanics changes you demand are the opposite of BDO's foundations.

"biased mechanics" "rewards" "every other MMO" etc etc etc, an absolutely meaningless "adapt to the western audience" when in fact you mean me, me, me. All of you throwing self entitled temper tantrum out there in this cemetery of a forum. You guys remind me of how the movie industry feels compelled to do remakes of movies barely a couple years old, because hey, the original is lithuanian, so let's make a "westernised" version because surely, people would hate it otherwise.

I'm not even saying you want it easy although there's a bit of that, i believe you, i believe you're convinced you don't want it easy.

I rest my case, you're asking for a clone, you want to swim in the same stale known waters, disregarding the fact that it works perfectly well as it is - spare the technical issues, bug fixing, and none gear related pvp balance WIP which are an entirely other matter. But no surely you don't want WoW or GW or SWTOR or whatever else, despites asking for the very same mechanics to be frankensteined into the game for your own leasure. The point is, this is all you know, people don't want different or new, they want the same exact stuff with a different skin and better performances. And cheaper. It's like marketing 101.

And the game will die and so forth. It's like hearing a 5yo kid asking for candy and when you say no, he tells you he will suicide because of you. You want to discuss, fine, but that's absolutely irrelevant, nonfactual, uneducated, subjective, narrowminded and boring. Players like you have no idea how this very kind of imbalances creates inertia. You want to remove it ? You shut the game's internal clockwork momentum.

And all of this based on the fact that you can't figure out how to gather shards properly. It's crazy.

TL;DR : i'm bored now, not interested in this stalemate conversation anymore, you guys aren't looking for discussions anyway. Go form a circle and keep jerking each other off until the next strangely familiar MMO is released.

This just in. Wanting less emphasis on RNG means I want WoW, GW, SWTOR, despite not wanting any of the following, instances, raids, linear growth (oh wait we have linear growth already), linear pathing through the game, simplified crafting, completely equalized gear, flying mounts, instanced arenas, separate pve only areas, gear treadmill (oh wait we have that now).

There are so many unique things about BDO that lessening RNG would not make it into a clone. Balance is already trash all around from the economy to gear, to the classes. Lessening rng would actually help some of that balance by reducing the gear gap indirectly.

I also find it hilarious you think RNG somehow makes things hard.

 

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