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IMPORTANT / Pls Read when u dont like +16 and higher Enchant


169 posts in this topic

Posted

Hello everyone, iam Loken.

What i want to talk about is a controversial Topic at the Moment on the Forums. Its about the Ability the Enchant your gear to +16/17/18/19/20.

 

First of all about me.

I started playing BDO at 16.12.2014 when the KR OBT started and stayed in the Game until now so over 1,5 Years now.

I'am counting myselfe to one of the ,,Hardcore'' Players in this Game if u want to call it like that :P

 

Ok so yea i saw a lot of Posts about the new Enchant System and how it will ruin this Game in total because the Cap between ,,casual'' and ,,Hardcore'' Player will be even more.

BUT this statement is totaly wrong. True some ppl like me prepared for Valencia and the new Enchant System for weeks now and some ppl had like 0 shards at all this Week.

I can tell all of you this will change nothing in total because Daum made it so super easy to get your Gear up to +17/18. The new system where u can downgrade by trying to up your Gear to +17 is insane for casual Player. Back in the Days in KR we downgraded to +15 and lost all that AP and DP because we failed +17/18 and had to start again......belive me it was a Pain in the Ass^^. Also the New Content ( Valencia ) is super easy and made for our casual Version of the Game. I mean u can go into Val with full +15/16 gear and kill the Mobs easyly without using tons of Potion if u know how to play your class. In KR the Minimum requirments to go Valencia were like 170+ AP and 225+ DP and with that stats u were super low in Grinding and inefficient.

 

Ok some ppl will say now : ,,But i fail all my Gear and have no Stones / Time / money to get +17/18 and all the Hardcore ppl will have full +19 soon and i will never catch up again'' 

I can say that +18 is atm in your Version like +15 for the last Months because its so easy to get +18 for us. It just takes a bit time for gathering to get the Shards back to try again. But in like 3-4 Weeks most of the Hardcore and Casual Player will have their +18 belive me....

 

To give a short example : We had ppl in our Guild like me with over 200 Upgrading Stones ready this Week and also some ppl with 20-30 Stones in total.

Now iam down to 30 Armor and 9 Weapon stones and still siting on ,,just'' +18 Gear after 6x TeT (+19) Fails. At the other Side the ppl with the low amount of Stones also have like +18 Weapon and 1-3 Armor Parts on +18 if there were not super unlucky with RNG. What i want to say with this is that +18 isnt hard but +19 is it. So ppl who say all the Whales will have +19 easy are totaly wrong. We have 1 Person in our Guild with Mainhand and offhand at +19 and thats it. And our Guild is one of the TOP 3 Hardcore Guilds on Jordine Eu Server.

At the End its all RNG with upgrading but +18 is not that hard to get like most of the ppl think....so just keep going for 3-5 Weeks and u will see that everyone has his +18 Gear.

 

 

Pls notice that my Mainlanguage isnt English, so iam sry for all the Grammatic Mistakes.

And also iam not that kind of Forum Warrior who reads all comments and answers all Question, iam sry for that :D

 

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Posted

True that  ^

Gendo in our guild failed a ton so it evens out in the long run.

 

Keep going and dont give up.

 

 

tetfails.png

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Posted

Wow that's a lot of bad luck heh.

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Posted

the only people who are complaining are those who didn't even bother slightly preparing for this content when they knew about it a month in advance

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Posted

 

At the End its all RNG with upgrading but +18 is not that hard to get .

 

RNG is opposite to any difficulty indicator. And that is main problem. PRogression in this game is completely out of control.

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Posted

I was prepared.i had incredible bad rng on my tri trys and stay now on pri without money.cant wait to spend the next month gathering,havnt even seen valencia.so saying its not hard is relative when tons of people luck from +15 to tri first try and other fail 10 tri attempts in a row.

Gathering is boring as ----- for endgame gear progression, -----s with the motivation.

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Posted

We had ppl in our Guild

Are you seriously comparing Grind with the rest of the unwashed crowd? 

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Posted (edited)

You're wrong for 2 reasons:

  1. The step gap per enchant tier is 7x. If hardcores continue to have 10x more resources (ironically what your post implied about release), then catch up will never occur.
  2. RNG now has a heavy effect. Before if you just tried to +14->+15 over and over you'll still get it within 100million. Now however, the lucky 1% gets it in 3 tries, while the unlucky could spend over 10 tries on just the +17->+18 part. If we're talking whole set, you're looking a variance of billions of extra gold spent by virtue of being unlucky.

I know general principles sound nice, but when the hard numbers are taken into account of the analyses, the variance and cost attached to what's happening now is not very promising. Look at the numbers:

+15 full set is like 200mil? If you spend more than 400million or less than 100million you're probably lying. Statistics prevents that because 90 total actions exist here.

Just +17->+18 PER PIECE is between 200-400mil assuming average luck, and because there's only 3 actions rather than 90, you're looking at huge variance. The law of large numbers do not apply to +15->+18. A player could reasonably get it in 30mil and another could be without it after almost a billion.

For a full +18 set, you're looking at a 3bil investment on average.

What's worse? It could be 500mil, and it could also be 10bil.

 

If you make 5m an hour at sausans, you can have full +15 in 40 hours. It will take you (on average) approximately 600 hours on sausan to get full +18. This is with market value, currently the mats are worth far more than market value but it will go down eventually... hopefully.

Edited by Featherine
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Posted

Logic & Reason

 

HOW DARE YOU

NO THIS GAME IS DOOMED RIP EVERYBODY GONE GG DAUM I QUIT

You're wrong for 2 reasons:

  1. The step gap per enchant tier is 7x. If hardcores continue to have 10x more resources (ironically what your post implied about release), then catch up will never occur.
  2. RNG now has a heavy effect. Before if you just tried to +14->+15 over and over you'll still get it within 100million. Now however, the lucky 1% gets it in 3 tries, while the unlucky could spend over 10 tries on just the +17->+18 part. If we're talking whole set, you're looking a variance of billions of extra gold spent by virtue of being unlucky.

I know general principles sound nice, but when the hard numbers are taken into account of the analyses, the variance and cost attached to what's happening now is not very promising. Look at the numbers:

+15 full set is like 200mil? If you spend more than 400million or less than 100million you're probably lying. Statistics prevents that because 90 total actions exist here.

Just +17->+18 PER PIECE is between 200-400mil assuming average luck, and because there's only 3 actions rather than 90, you're looking at huge variance. The law of large numbers do not apply to +15->+18. A player could reasonably get it in 30mil and another could be without it after almost a billion.

For a full +18 set, you're looking at a 3bil investment on average.

What's worse? It could be 500mil, and it could also be 10bil.

 

If you make 5m an hour at sausans, you can have full +15 in 40 hours. It will take you (on average) approximately 600 hours on sausan to get full +18. This is with market value, currently the mats are worth far more than market value but it will go down eventually... hopefully.

I've seen so many TRI these last days, i'm starting to think the % to +18 is much easier than what we knew from KR back then with Steparu. Of course this is only speculations, but still. I have yet to see anyone complain they failed 10 times to PRI.

Everyone complaining they will never be able to catch up acts as if they were alone - and paradoxically deduces everybody is quitting. Thing is either you're unable to catch up, either the majority of the players are on an equivalent level than yours since apparently they all want to quit, so then why would they since there is no hurry ? There is a lot of disingenuity and self entitlement in these kind of claims.

Finally, what is 600h in the scale of an MMO ? 200 days at barely 3h a day, and it's not like you're stucked at +15 and then *ding* +18 once you reach 600h, the progression is much more horizontal than people are trying to make it out to be. And it's also not like you were entirely without resources when Valencia hit. And like you said, the market is going crazy currently, it will most likely always be rather expensive but it's bound to soften. Plus there's a lot of disinformation when it comes to World Boss drops and such, i tell you people are being dishonest.

BDO is just not a small scale MMO, why do people expect to reach end game within the timeframe of a sneeze, i just don't understand. It's like playing EVE and complaining you can't roll Titan within the first 2 weeks and cry about how even you're supposed to catch up.

 

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Posted

I have one question: what this whole CATCH UP means for you ppl?

Is the difference between full +18 and +19 set so big that all casuals will be slauthered by hardcore players (after they finally make full +19 paid with a few no-life months?)

Is it really so important "to catch up"?

 

For me (as a casual) its a unfair that the difference between me(1-3h/day) and the player that grinds 10-15h/day will be so little..

Its hardocre players who should whine... not casuals

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Posted

@Loken Why do you even bother ? I mean, that's some good insight, but in the end, the people mad about the +16-20 are just people beaing casual + bad at the game. The new gear spike is +18, +17 is easily reachable by anyone, as long as they put in a bit of effort, 18 could be seen as their endgame goal, and once again it's not even hard to reach. 

Ofc some people thought they were "good/skilled players", even "hardcore" because of games like WoW. Now they are back to earth, realizing they are not and they rage about it. 

It's easy to hide behind "no lifers are too ahead we can't catch up", but truth is, the gear gap between a hardcore and an average player (i mean the average with some skill and a fully functionning brain) is not that huge, because of how hard it is to enchant further.

 

Other topic : Did you get your liv blade to TET? Thx for the entertainment anyway, felt bad for you seeing all those fail messages.

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Posted

I've seen so many TRI these last days, i'm starting to think the % to +18 is much easier than what we knew from KR back then with Steparu. Of course this is only speculations, but still. I have yet to see anyone complain they failed 10 times to PRI.

Well PRI apparently has a 52.5% success chance with 25 stacks, so it's semi-impossible to fail 10x in the first place. If KR tables are to be trusted, you're looking at 300m~ for +17->+18 on average per piece. That's not a small sum. Of course you're going to see the success spam anyway, because sampling bias.

Everyone complaining they will never be able to catch up acts as if they were alone - and paradoxically deduces everybody is quitting. Thing is either you're unable to catch up, either the majority of the players are on an equivalent level than yours since apparently they all want to quit, so then why would they since there is no hurry ? There is a lot of disingenuity and self entitlement in these kind of claims.

In my opinion, an acceptable gear gap follows the philosophy that:

It is hard to be the best, but it is not hard to be relevant.

Each step (e.g. TRI vs TET) is at least 31 total stat gap, and up to 50 on DUO vs TRI. It's pretty hard to be relevant right now. 

In no MMOs can you actually catch up to dedicated players. Balance to me is not physically catching up, it's being relevant. And we're not even getting into how much RNG can ----- people up now.

Finally, what is 600h in the scale of an MMO ? 200 days at barely 3h a day, and it's not like you're stucked at +15 and then *ding* +18 once you reach 600h, the progression is much more horizontal than people are trying to make it out to be. And it's also not like you were entirely without resources when Valencia hit. And like you said, the market is going crazy currently, it will most likely always be rather expensive but it's bound to soften. Plus there's a lot of disinformation when it comes to World Boss drops and such, i tell you people are being dishonest.

Other people are also progressing during those 200 days. If your timescale is infinite then sure everyone eventually catches up, but that's not practical. A year is almost 20% of a MMO's total lifespan just for players starting 3 months after launch to catch up with to where launch players are 200 days ago. Not to mention you'd actually have to dedicate 3 hrs a day grinding.

BDO is just not a small scale MMO, why do people expect to reach end game within the timeframe of a sneeze, i just don't understand. It's like playing EVE and complaining you can't roll Titan within the first 2 weeks and cry about how even you're supposed to catch up.

I don't think that comparison is fair TBH. Being a Titan pilot means absolutely jack shit in EVE if there's no diplomacy to back you up. In BDO however, being a TET player right now lets you run around the world god mode as a 1 man army.

 

 

 

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Posted

Sigh looks like another narrow minded forum post. "Super easy" "Valencia is super easy with +15 gear" 

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Posted

Sigh looks like another narrow minded forum post. "Super easy" "Valencia is super easy with +15 gear" 

To be fair, the PvE part is...

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Posted

To be fair, the PvE part is...

for questing and such yes, but to grind mobs in Valencia for $ efficiently I believe you need more then +15 gears.

(I'm sure there will be tests in the future that look at and compare end game grind spots in mediah and Valencia and what gears you need to efficiently clear them to make it worthwhile)

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Posted (edited)

for questing and such yes, but to grind mobs in Valencia for $ efficiently I believe you need more then +15 gears.

(I'm sure there will be tests in the future that look at and compare end game grind spots in mediah and Valencia and what gears you need to efficiently clear them to make it worthwhile)

Depends on what you mean by efficiency. It's a fact that the better gear you have the faster you clear... this applies to every single spot in the game. So in a sense your statement here is a tautology.

Edited by Featherine

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Posted

Well PRI apparently has a 52.5% success chance with 25 stacks, so it's semi-impossible to fail 10x in the first place. If KR tables are to be trusted, you're looking at 300m~ for +17->+18 on average per piece. That's not a small sum. Of course you're going to see the success spam anyway, because sampling bias.

In my opinion, an acceptable gear gap follows the philosophy that:

It is hard to be the best, but it is not hard to be relevant.

That's the thing, it's not hard to be relevant since it's not like everyone's at +18 and you're left behind. We're all playing the same game. Hence why the paradox. If everybody's left behind then no one is left behind.

 

Other people are also progressing during those 200 days. If your timescale is infinite then sure everyone eventually catches up, but that's not practical. A year is almost 20% of a MMO's total lifespan just for players starting 3 months after launch to catch up with to where launch players are 200 days ago. Not to mention you'd actually have to dedicate 3 hrs a day grinding.

I don't think that comparison is fair TBH. Being a Titan pilot means absolutely jack shit in EVE if there's no diplomacy to back you up. In BDO however, being a TET player right now lets you run around the world god mode as a 1 man army.

 

Yea but the progression itself is not infinite either, first there is the TRI millestone, people won't go TET, much less PEN as easily as they reached TRI. Then there's diminishing returns. Consider the time it takes to say, TRI witch earrings compared to what you get in return.

Also, yea, Titan pilot, precisely, you won't go anywhere alone, it's actually 1000x times worst than BDO, to the point where most players simply have to admit they will most likely never even see the color of a Titan within their entire time into the game, and i'm pretty sure everyone's fine with it. I understand you're pointing at the fact that you can't be a one man army as opposed to being a PEN player in BDO fighting lowbees, but the analogy stands : if you ever decide to roll a Titan you have the means to back it up, means completely beyond what a new player or a casual player clan could ever hope to afford.

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Depends on what you mean by efficiency. It's a fact that the better gear you have the faster you clear... this applies to every single spot in the game.

Efficiency in mmo clearing would generally mean hitting the sweet spot where you clear the mob just fast enough so that when you come back to the camp after a lap of the rotation all the mobs in that camp have respawned

An example of inefficient grinding is players with +18 gears trying to grind Susan's, they clear so fast that the mobs have no time to respawn, meaning they were wasting time waiting for the respawn. 

in valencia I doubt you could hit that sweet spot with +15 gears, and compared to older spots like Susan's where you are grinding efficiently, grinding in Valencia just wouldn't be worth the time.

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Posted

I agree with this post 100% i did most of the Valencia story line with +15 gear its not that hard

Casuals always gonna cry cuz they think they so hardcore and awesome cuz of casual western mmo's

 if they bothered to actually play the game they would see its not that hard or bad at all

I dont have +18 stuff but im happy its here cuz it gives me something to work at and have fun in this game by improving my char even more.

ppl just want things handed to them and wanna make crazy threats if they don't get their way

they even make up stupid math bs that doesn't even make sense to try to fool dumb people into thinking they are right

the system is awesome and a lot of people love it the people that dont like it are used to getting max gear in a week of grinding dungeons in causal western mmo's 

we like the fact this is a korean title if we wanted to play another western wow clone there are thousands to choose from

this is BDO and its different and i love it for that reason

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Posted

That's the thing, it's not hard to be relevant since it's not like everyone's at +18 and you're left behind. We're all playing the same game. Hence why the paradox. If everybody's left behind then no one is left behind.

Yea but the progression itself is not infinite either, first there is the TRI millestone, people won't go TET, much less PEN as easily as they reached TRI. Then there's diminishing returns. Consider the time it takes to say, TRI witch earrings compared to what you get in return.

Also, yea, Titan pilot, precisely, you won't go anywhere alone, it's actually 1000x times worst than BDO, to the point where most players simply have to admit they will most likely never even see the color of a Titan within their entire time into the game, and i'm pretty sure everyone's fine with it. I understand you're pointing at the fact that you can't be a one man army as opposed to being a PEN player in BDO fighting lowbees, but the analogy stands : if you ever decide to roll a Titan you have the means to back it up, means completely beyond what a new player or a casual player clan could ever hope to afford.

As someone with most of my armor at PRI and my wep/off hand at DUO I feel 100% irrelevant atm my guild got into a war yesterday and their witch 1 shoted me and I have 2.6khp atm.  Maybe if your tactic is to NEVER show up to any guild events that involve doing pvp and dodging anyone that is from a relevant guild as soon as you see them then ye you might just be able to farm and gather your way to TRI.  I will admit I was not the best prepared for the patch but I still had almost 90 hard/sharps(total) before and due to bad RNG I dident even manage to get my armor to DUO and had to buy more sharps to just reach DUO.

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Posted

You're wrong for 2 reasons:

  1. The step gap per enchant tier is 7x. If hardcores continue to have 10x more resources (ironically what your post implied about release), then catch up will never occur.
  2. RNG now has a heavy effect. Before if you just tried to +14->+15 over and over you'll still get it within 100million. Now however, the lucky 1% gets it in 3 tries, while the unlucky could spend over 10 tries on just the +17->+18 part. If we're talking whole set, you're looking a variance of billions of extra gold spent by virtue of being unlucky.

I know general principles sound nice, but when the hard numbers are taken into account of the analyses, the variance and cost attached to what's happening now is not very promising. Look at the numbers:

+15 full set is like 200mil? If you spend more than 400million or less than 100million you're probably lying. Statistics prevents that because 90 total actions exist here.

Just +17->+18 PER PIECE is between 200-400mil assuming average luck, and because there's only 3 actions rather than 90, you're looking at huge variance. The law of large numbers do not apply to +15->+18. A player could reasonably get it in 30mil and another could be without it after almost a billion.

For a full +18 set, you're looking at a 3bil investment on average.

What's worse? It could be 500mil, and it could also be 10bil.

 

If you make 5m an hour at sausans, you can have full +15 in 40 hours. It will take you (on average) approximately 600 hours on sausan to get full +18. This is with market value, currently the mats are worth far more than market value but it will go down eventually... hopefully.

40h For full +15 ... how much was that when the game released? 200-400h ? +15 is not progression at this point its standard.

Also i wonder where you get the actual numbers and how you know they are accurate for our version ? My guess is that at 40+ failstacks +18 is like 50% ... also if you were preparing it was 3m for sharp and 1.2m for hard shard...

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Posted (edited)

That's the thing, it's not hard to be relevant since it's not like everyone's at +18 and you're left behind. We're all playing the same game. Hence why the paradox. If everybody's left behind then no one is left behind.

That's invalid reasoning because not everyone is left behind. Obviously there's a small subset who are full +18 or over right now who are clearly not left behind.

The issue is to do with distribution of "relevance". If the definition of relevance is something like "less than 40 less AP+DP than the top player on your server" which makes a lot of sense if you think about it, then pre-patch almost nobody was behind. Right now? Almost everybody is.

Edited by Featherine

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Posted

I will admit I was not the best prepared for the patch but I still had almost 90 hard/sharps(total) before and due to bad RNG I dident even manage to get my armor to DUO and had to buy more sharps to just reach DUO.

This is either complete bullshit and you are overexaggerating or you are so extremely bad at properly and efficiently using failstacks  that you only have yourself to blame. I got my weapon to TRI, offhand to DUO, 3 armors to DUO and 1 armor to PRI with 25 concentrated armor stones and 10 concentrated weapon stones, and around 250 normal armor blackstones to build 15-20 failstacks on reblath a few times.

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Posted

That's invalid reasoning because not everyone is left behind. Obviously there's a small subset who are full +18 or over right now who are clearly not left behind.

The issue is to do with distribution of "relevance". If the definition of relevance is something like "less than 40 less AP+DP than the top player on your server" which makes a lot of sense if you think about it, then pre-patch almost nobody was behind. Right now? Almost everybody is.

Right before the patch ? Yes sure, the gap was much closer. But think about the first month or so. Within a week we had players already running around at lvl53. And people were already complaining.

I respect your opinion, i do, more than most people on this forum, but on this particular case i find you let yourself becoming overwhelmed.

As someone with most of my armor at PRI and my wep/off hand at DUO I feel 100% irrelevant atm my guild got into a war yesterday and their witch 1 shoted me and I have 2.6khp atm.  Maybe if your tactic is to NEVER show up to any guild events that involve doing pvp and dodging anyone that is from a relevant guild as soon as you see them then ye you might just be able to farm and gather your way to TRI.  I will admit I was not the best prepared for the patch but I still had almost 90 hard/sharps(total) before and due to bad RNG I dident even manage to get my armor to DUO and had to buy more sharps to just reach DUO.

There's just a huge difference between being "irrelevant" for a couple of weeks, and then being unable to ever catch up, ever.

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This is either complete bullshit and you are overexaggerating or you are so extremely bad at properly and efficiently using failstacks  that you only have yourself to blame. I got my weapon to TRI, offhand to DUO, 3 armors to DUO and 1 armor to PRI with 25 concentrated armor stones and 10 concentrated weapon stones, and around 250 normal armor blackstones to build 15-20 failstacks on reblath a few times.

I got to 48 failstacks trying to get my liverto to DUO. Please your experience is not equal to what everyone else experianced enchanting their gear. I went for PRI on my gloves yesterday and start from 21 failstacks  it tok me 8 enchants to get it to PRI.

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