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I think some people miss the impact of the DF nerf...from a gameplay and fun perspective..

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Posted (edited)

I think with all the blame, complains, trolling and other such discussions alot of people sorcs and non-sorcs alike are missing the true impact of the DF nerf/bug/balance. This isn't about sorcs being OP or weak, this is about breaking the fundamental gameplay and fun of a class. 

 

Class design Philosophies
Each class in BDO is designed and based around its own philosophy, some of these philosophies cross over others are unique to that class. Lets take the wizard for example, they are designed around a static based, huge dmg dealing class. So the gameplay philosophy is that they have huge nukes on long cooldowns that you have to remain static to cast, and they also have some great quick spells that do large dmg to fill the gap between those cooldowns. So for example they use Residual Lightning and the recently buffed magic missle. 

If you made residual lightning weak or made it single target for example, the FUN and gameplay of the wiz/witch classes is broken, the actual flow and feel of the class is hindered incredibly, because they are left doing pathetic dmg for 30secs - 1min whilst waiting for their large hitting abilities to come off cooldown. This would become all the more apparent if this change came in AFTER everyone was using Residual Lightning to do consistent good dmg outside their BIG hitting moves. 

You can do this with alot of classes so for example lets take the Valkyrie, big moves include Sword of Judgement and Celestial Spear for utility. Now lets make Sword of judgement on a 1min cooldown and take away Celestial's spear's knockdown component. The classes combos have to completely change, they can no longer smoothly pull out fancy and cool combination combo's to bring down classes, as they are stifled by this 30sec cooldown on one of their fundamental dmg skills, simply having less utility from their other move. 
 

So what does this mean for the sorc?
This is whats happened with the DF change. The sorc class now lacks a smooth coherent, but more important FUN gameplay connection of moves. By removing the strength of that bread and butter move, forget making the class weaker, its made the class less enjoyable to play day to day. 

Additionally forget PvP, this is even more apparent in PvE, I was grinding on Cadry knights yesterday with my tamer and Valk friend and as I watched them smash into the mobs with flurrying combos and large dmg hitting moves over and over. I was simply trying to use DF now and then, waste tons of mana casting Shadow eruption or Bloody Calamity for nominal dmg and waiting every 30secs to actually do some worthwhile dmg, all the while taking large amounts of dmg due to our inherent squishiness. Which makes it all the more frustrating when you see a tank class smashing through the mobs not with ease, but certainly with less risk. Furthermore, the top tier of the skill is 

 

In conclusion
So when you talk about the DF change, forget whether we were OP or whether it makes the class weak, more importantly it makes the classes moves feel less connected, less fluid and most importantly less fun to play with, because everytime you go to DF it makes me cringe with the lack of dmg a 765% x 5 move does or even the fact it has no utility value.

Edited by Ryukenwulf
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Not being broken and playable to monkeys has made it less fun and "connected"? cool bro

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I think with all the blame, complains, trolling and other such discussions alot of people sorcs and non-sorcs alike are missing the true impact of the DF nerf/bug/balance. This isn't about sorcs being OP or weak, this is about breaking the fundamental gameplay and fun of a class. 

 

Class design Philosophies
Each class in BDO is designed and based around its own philosophy, some of these philosophies cross over others are unique to that class. Lets take the wizard for example, they are designed around a static based, huge dmg dealing class. So the gameplay philosophy is that they have huge nukes on long cooldowns that you have to remain static to cast, and they also have some great quick spells that do large dmg to fill the gap between those cooldowns. So for example they use Residual Lightning and the recently buffed magic missle. 

If you made residual lightning weak or made it single target for example, the FUN and gameplay of the wiz/witch classes is broken, the actual flow and feel of the class is hindered incredibly, because they are left doing pathetic dmg for 30secs - 1min whilst waiting for their large hitting abilities to come off cooldown. This would become all the more apparent if this change came in AFTER everyone was using Residual Lightning to do consistent good dmg outside their BIG hitting moves. 

You can do this with alot of classes so for example lets take the Valkyrie, big moves include Sword of Judgement and Celestial Spear for utility. Now lets make Sword of judgement on a 1min cooldown and take away Celestial's spear's knockdown component. The classes combos have to completely change, they can no longer smoothly pull out fancy and cool combination combo's to bring down classes, as they are stifled by this 30sec cooldown on one of their fundamental dmg skills, simply having less utility from their other move. 
 

So what does this mean for the sorc?
This is whats happened with the DF change. The sorc class now lacks a smooth coherent, but more important FUN gameplay connection of moves. By removing the strength of that bread and butter move, forget making the class weaker, its made the class less enjoyable to play day to day. 

Additionally forget PvP, this is even more apparent in PvE, I was grinding on Cadry knights yesterday with my tamer and Valk friend and as I watched them smash into the mobs with flurrying combos and large dmg hitting moves over and over. I was simply trying to use DF now and then, waste tons of mana casting Shadow eruption or Bloody Calamity for nominal dmg and waiting every 30secs to actually do some worthwhile dmg, all the while taking large amounts of dmg due to our inherent squishiness. Which makes it all the more frustrating when you see a tank class smashing through the mobs not with ease, but certainly with less risk. Furthermore, the top tier of the skill is 

 

In conclusion
So when you talk about the DF change, forget whether we were OP or whether it makes the class weak, more importantly it makes the classes moves feel less connected, less fluid and most importantly less fun to play with, because everytime you go to DF it makes me cringe with the lack of dmg a 765% x 5 move does or even the fact it has no utility value.

e7f.jpg

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157.jpg

 

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I think with all the blame, complains, trolling and other such discussions alot of people sorcs and non-sorcs alike are missing the true impact of the DF nerf/bug/balance. This isn't about sorcs being OP or weak, this is about breaking the fundamental gameplay and fun of a class. 

 

Class design Philosophies
Each class in BDO is designed and based around its own philosophy, some of these philosophies cross over others are unique to that class. Lets take the wizard for example, they are designed around a static based, huge dmg dealing class. So the gameplay philosophy is that they have huge nukes on long cooldowns that you have to remain static to cast, and they also have some great quick spells that do large dmg to fill the gap between those cooldowns. So for example they use Residual Lightning and the recently buffed magic missle. 

If you made residual lightning weak or made it single target for example, the FUN and gameplay of the wiz/witch classes is broken, the actual flow and feel of the class is hindered incredibly, because they are left doing pathetic dmg for 30secs - 1min whilst waiting for their large hitting abilities to come off cooldown. This would become all the more apparent if this change came in AFTER everyone was using Residual Lightning to do consistent good dmg outside their BIG hitting moves. 

You can do this with alot of classes so for example lets take the Valkyrie, big moves include Sword of Judgement and Celestial Spear for utility. Now lets make Sword of judgement on a 1min cooldown and take away Celestial's spear's knockdown component. The classes combos have to completely change, they can no longer smoothly pull out fancy and cool combination combo's to bring down classes, as they are stifled by this 30sec cooldown on one of their fundamental dmg skills, simply having less utility from their other move. 
 

So what does this mean for the sorc?
This is whats happened with the DF change. The sorc class now lacks a smooth coherent, but more important FUN gameplay connection of moves. By removing the strength of that bread and butter move, forget making the class weaker, its made the class less enjoyable to play day to day. 

Additionally forget PvP, this is even more apparent in PvE, I was grinding on Cadry knights yesterday with my tamer and Valk friend and as I watched them smash into the mobs with flurrying combos and large dmg hitting moves over and over. I was simply trying to use DF now and then, waste tons of mana casting Shadow eruption or Bloody Calamity for nominal dmg and waiting every 30secs to actually do some worthwhile dmg, all the while taking large amounts of dmg due to our inherent squishiness. Which makes it all the more frustrating when you see a tank class smashing through the mobs not with ease, but certainly with less risk. Furthermore, the top tier of the skill is 

 

In conclusion
So when you talk about the DF change, forget whether we were OP or whether it makes the class weak, more importantly it makes the classes moves feel less connected, less fluid and most importantly less fun to play with, because everytime you go to DF it makes me cringe with the lack of dmg a 765% x 5 move does or even the fact it has no utility value.

No this IS about Sorc being weak. Im a sorc player myself, I dont play other classes and  dont intend to. I honestly only have alts to look at them in their outfits, im a slight fashion whore. With that being said the playstyle of Sorc is better off with this change, as begrudgingly as anyone may want to admit it's the truth. The only thing Sorc players and our competitors know is that our old DF combo is no longer viable. Outside of that how much damage a sorc can actually do with the plethora of skills at it's disposal is somewhat of a mystery. Other combos have only been recently explored due DF's forced change. In fact many skills were forsaken and overlooked to focus on the pure nuke damage of this one skill.

The skill being so strong killed the intended playstyle and provided us with an unintended fantasy we ultimately fell in love with because it was extremely successful. To truly appreciate what you lost you need to be honest and stop bsing. We liked DF because it was broken and it made us the best 1v1 class in the game. Period. Thats no longer the case, and since such changes were made there have been other skills and changes brought to the forefront which can help us peice together new combos, new variables/effects in our skills that can make us still powerful in a 1v1 scenario. Sorc was never and will never be great in large scale fights, but I do believe there is still potential in finding a new road which will give experienced sorc players an avenue to abuse and punish the mistakes of players who underestimate the abilities of Sorc.

The only thing this change means for Sorc is that all PvP from here on out is virtually uncharted territory. You need to experiment and find in what situations do what skills prove to be most effective and IF THERE IS an optimal combo what is it? Can we play a burst style anymore? Do we need to abuse our iframes and play the whittle them down game, since we cannot nuke as frequently? The class is honestly more fun to play, if you really did move to the class for it's playstlye because between all the animation cancels, animations and mobility you really do feel like you're capable of doing  alot on the fly, even if they dont lose half-all their hp in 2 seconds anymore. Practice and define a fighting style that focuses less on the dmg output and more on the potential outplay. There are still mechanics in the game which favor you over other classes. Also try not compare yourself to a wizard/witch. You'll just get triggered.

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Not being broken and playable to monkeys has made it less fun and "connected"? cool bro

because activating sage mode - casting Meteor and Blizzard is something monkeys couldn't do even easier...

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nerf wizard and it will be a equal balance to all classes..end of story. Enough with the bullshit.

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because activating sage mode - casting Meteor and Blizzard is something monkeys couldn't do even easier...

It's true. That requires at least 2 inputs.

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Posted (edited)

Hah it wasn't a nerf...The skill had both a bug and an unintended dmg output value. Of course, most of us - Sorcs - see it as a nerf, but it wasn't like a skill was set intentionally, and signed off as being balanced, and then changed later....Both aspects were unintentional, and were corrected. The skill still hits well enough...when it isn't on cool down.  If so many sorcs hadn't relied on spamming one skill (We aren't rangers or horse wizards - am I right?), they would see there is definitely a synergy to the abilities, and it leads you in a port pattern around any mob you can't swipe and kill in 4 or more hits.

 

We had an overpowered and bugged skill that did full crit damage no matter the state of the skill (on or off cool down).  It was broken.  It was nice for those guys that want to one one shot wreck everything not owning a shield....but it wasn't the intended play style.  Sorc is in no way weak.  I play exactly the same now as I did before the skill change (admittedly because I didn't know the skill was bugged, just never used it on CD I guess), so the idea of people being this bent out of shape over something that was fixed for everyone sake - I find mind boggling....and a little humorous.

 

Edited by Melrakki
Edited because the content was repeated due to the forums crashing right after the post and the page stopped responding. Wasn't even aware the post had been submitted before the crash.
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Posted (edited)

Hah it wasn't a nerf...The skill had both a bug and an unintended dmg output value. Of course, most of us - Sorcs - see it as a nerf, but it wasn't like a skill was set intentionally, and signed off as being balanced, and then changed later....Both aspects were unintentional, and were corrected. The skill still hits well enough...when it isn't on cool down.  If so many sorcs hadn't relied on spamming one skill (We aren't rangers or horse wizards - am I right?), they would see there is definitely a synergy to the abilities, and it leads you in a port pattern around any mob you can't swipe and kill in 4 or more hits.

 

We had an overpowered and bugged skill that did full crit damage no matter the state of the skill (on or off cool down).  It was broken.  It was nice for those guys that want to one one shot wreck everything not owning a shield....but it wasn't the intended play style.  Sorc is in no way weak.  I play exactly the same now as I did before the skill change (admittedly because I didn't know the skill was bugged, just never used it on CD I guess), so the idea of people being this bent out of shape over something that was fixed for everyone sake - I find mind boggling....and a little humorous.

Hah it wasn't a nerf...The skill had both a bug and an unintended dmg output value. Of course, most of us - Sorcs - see it as a nerf, but it wasn't like a skill was set intentionally, and signed off as being balanced, and then changed later....Both aspects were unintentional, and were corrected. The skill still hits well enough...when it isn't on cool down.  If so many sorcs hadn't relied on spamming one skill (We aren't rangers or horse wizards - am I right?), they would see there is definitely a synergy to the abilities, and it leads you in a port pattern around any mob you can't swipe and kill in 4 or more hits.

 

We had an overpowered and bugged skill that did full crit damage no matter the state of the skill (on or off cool down).  It was broken.  It was nice for those guys that want to one one shot wreck everything not owning a shield....but it wasn't the intended play style.  Sorc is in no way weak.  I play exactly the same now as I did before the skill change (admittedly because I didn't know the skill was bugged, just never used it on CD I guess), so the idea of people being this bent out of shape over something that was fixed for everyone sake - I find mind boggling....and a little humorous.

Did you copy and paste that from somewhere? Or am I having deja vu?

To provide a retort, guess the class is just not as fun anymore, it can't grind PvE as efficiently as other classes, it can't burst like a wiz, rang or tamer in PvP. So not sure what it provides now except CC bot....and well other classes can do that better too. 

You really need to look at the videos that have been posted to see or even try to understand why a skill with a 765% x 5 dmg ratio is hitting for 140hp off cooldown and 250hp on cooldown, if you want some help finding the video, the link is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suGI_9EGvyc

I don't want the old broken version back, I would just like something that is worthwhile using in rotation and especially something with that high dmg on its tooltip. If you look at this scientifically with evidence, there is no explanation for the skill acting the way it now currently works considering the tooltip description and its effects in the game and PROVEN in videos. Why are people in denial about what is evidenced. 

Yes we can carry on, yes its fine super duper, NO its not ok that this ability which looks like the best one we have has become one of the worse hitting abillities we now have. 

Edited by Ryukenwulf

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because activating sage mode - casting Meteor and Blizzard is something monkeys couldn't do even easier...

Good on you for leaving out the most important part jackass. Witches and Wizards stand still for almost all of their abilities. If they don't have people protecting them they will get dicked on. That's their thing, they excel greatly in large scale fights when they are allowed to do whatever they want. Before DF nerf Sorcs would go in 1v10s spam DF like a herpaderp, get kills and get out. Glad this class went to shit. 

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It's true. That requires at least 2 inputs.

If you're dying to a sorc only using dark flame. I honestly think you should git gud.

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Hah it wasn't a nerf...The skill had both a bug and an unintended dmg output value. Of course, most of us - Sorcs - see it as a nerf, but it wasn't like a skill was set intentionally, and signed off as being balanced, and then changed later....Both aspects were unintentional, and were corrected. The skill still hits well enough...when it isn't on cool down.  If so many sorcs hadn't relied on spamming one skill (We aren't rangers or horse wizards - am I right?), they would see there is definitely a synergy to the abilities, and it leads you in a port pattern around any mob you can't swipe and kill in 4 or more hits.

 

We had an overpowered and bugged skill that did full crit damage no matter the state of the skill (on or off cool down).  It was broken.  It was nice for those guys that want to one one shot wreck everything not owning a shield....but it wasn't the intended play style.  Sorc is in no way weak.  I play exactly the same now as I did before the skill change (admittedly because I didn't know the skill was bugged, just never used it on CD I guess), so the idea of people being this bent out of shape over something that was fixed for everyone sake - I find mind boggling....and a little humorous.

 

Very good and wellwritten post, and nice to hear this perspective from a fellow sorc.

As for Darkflame as an ability I find it strange that we even have an ability that grants us frontal block. Looking at our playstyle with fast movement and iframes to get around to the back, I actually wouldnt mind giving up this mechanic in PvP for a bit of the old damage(not the 100%critchance since that is for warriors) Having Darkflame as 5sec cooldown burster works aswel for me, we have a few other abilties that fit into routations so we dont have to be 1trickponies with only one damage ability.

But looking at the procentage across the board in our skilltree, I personally, think most of them are on the lowend. Instead of all this Darkflame focus, I would like to see some of the other abilties getting a tad bit of increase to get on pair. And as I mentioned maybe give up on the Frontal block in PvP (its quite nice in pve)

But overall good post I hope the trolls stay away for a bit to hear what others have to say :)

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Posted (edited)

Good on you for leaving out the most important part jackass. Witches and Wizards stand still for almost all of their abilities. If they don't have people protecting them they will get dicked on. That's their thing, they excel greatly in large scale fights when they are allowed to do whatever they want. Before DF nerf Sorcs would go in 1v10s spam DF like a herpaderp, get kills and get out. Glad this class went to shit. 

I think efficiency is more of a concern here. Wizard/witches are indeed rooted to the ground but they also have the best CC abilities in the game by a huge margin. With the strongest slow in the game. They are the only class in the game with heals as well. 

In theory, wizard has the best survivability, damage and cc of any other class with also the best AOE abilities in the game which if lands on the enemy, causes other stun/stagger cc effects + knockdown. In comparison with sorcerer atm. We can do a considerable amount of damage in 30 seconds. After those 30 seconds if we don't land a kill you can fully heal yourself to full Hp with your heals as well as pot. In other words, sorcerer has no chance against wizard and their current stat regulations if a fight were to take place where both were equally geared and skilled. 

There's a terrible stigma in the BDO community. Literally, some players are so bad that they forget how their class actually can counter sorc simply by insta casting meteor and blizzard at a failed midnight stinger or rushing crow. 

There was a reason why a lot of sorc said "git gud". People in KR and RU didn't have the same troubles against Sorc.

ah for -----s sake it didn't merge again D:<

Edited by Berlioz

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I think efficiency is more of a concern here. Wizard/witches are indeed rooted to the ground but they also have the best CC abilities in the game by a huge margin. With the strongest slow in the game. They are the only class in the game with heals as well. 

In theory, wizard has the best survivability, damage and cc of any other class with also the best AOE abilities in the game which if lands on the enemy, causes other stun/stagger cc effects + knockdown. In comparison with sorcerer atm. We can do a considerable amount of damage in 30 seconds. After those 30 seconds if we don't land a kill you can fully heal yourself to full Hp with your heals as well as pot. In other words, sorcerer has no chance against wizard and their current stat regulations if a fight were to take place where both were equally geared and skilled. 

There's a terrible stigma in the BDO community. Literally, some players are so bad that they forget how their class actually can counter sorc simply by insta casting meteor and blizzard at a failed midnight stinger or rushing crow. 

There was a reason why a lot of sorc said "git gud". People in KR and RU didn't have the same troubles against Sorc.

ah for -----s sake it didn't merge again D:<

For me they were too good all around. Open world PvP, 1v1s, small scale fights with the exception of being an assassin-esque class in GvG. They class for me was just too versatile. Atleast with Wiz/Witch you could catch them if you get past their front line but in open world when grinding alone in PvE if I get jumped its GG unless the enemy sucks and is under geared. Every class has their pros and cons, Sorcs just had hardly any cons that I can think of. I do not deny the fact that Wiz/Witchs are really strong in the current meta but at the same time I respect that they are team-dependent rather than the master of all trades at one point I think my guild was filled with 33% sorcs before DF was nerfed. 

http://www.strawpoll.me/6972493/r This was posted about a few months ago on the reddit. While it may not be 100% accurate because of course not all BDO players go on the reddit, it gives a direction of which class is played the most. 

I have talked to you before and I like you but I do not like the class at all.

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GET GOOD

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I think with all the blame, complains, trolling and other such discussions alot of people sorcs and non-sorcs alike are missing the true impact of the DF nerf/bug/balance. This isn't about sorcs being OP or weak, this is about breaking the fundamental gameplay and fun of a class. 

 

Class design Philosophies
Each class in BDO is designed and based around its own philosophy, some of these philosophies cross over others are unique to that class. Lets take the wizard for example, they are designed around a static based, huge dmg dealing class. So the gameplay philosophy is that they have huge nukes on long cooldowns that you have to remain static to cast, and they also have some great quick spells that do large dmg to fill the gap between those cooldowns. So for example they use Residual Lightning and the recently buffed magic missle. 

If you made residual lightning weak or made it single target for example, the FUN and gameplay of the wiz/witch classes is broken, the actual flow and feel of the class is hindered incredibly, because they are left doing pathetic dmg for 30secs - 1min whilst waiting for their large hitting abilities to come off cooldown. This would become all the more apparent if this change came in AFTER everyone was using Residual Lightning to do consistent good dmg outside their BIG hitting moves. 

You can do this with alot of classes so for example lets take the Valkyrie, big moves include Sword of Judgement and Celestial Spear for utility. Now lets make Sword of judgement on a 1min cooldown and take away Celestial's spear's knockdown component. The classes combos have to completely change, they can no longer smoothly pull out fancy and cool combination combo's to bring down classes, as they are stifled by this 30sec cooldown on one of their fundamental dmg skills, simply having less utility from their other move. 
 

So what does this mean for the sorc?
This is whats happened with the DF change. The sorc class now lacks a smooth coherent, but more important FUN gameplay connection of moves. By removing the strength of that bread and butter move, forget making the class weaker, its made the class less enjoyable to play day to day. 

Additionally forget PvP, this is even more apparent in PvE, I was grinding on Cadry knights yesterday with my tamer and Valk friend and as I watched them smash into the mobs with flurrying combos and large dmg hitting moves over and over. I was simply trying to use DF now and then, waste tons of mana casting Shadow eruption or Bloody Calamity for nominal dmg and waiting every 30secs to actually do some worthwhile dmg, all the while taking large amounts of dmg due to our inherent squishiness. Which makes it all the more frustrating when you see a tank class smashing through the mobs not with ease, but certainly with less risk. Furthermore, the top tier of the skill is 

 

In conclusion
So when you talk about the DF change, forget whether we were OP or whether it makes the class weak, more importantly it makes the classes moves feel less connected, less fluid and most importantly less fun to play with, because everytime you go to DF it makes me cringe with the lack of dmg a 765% x 5 move does or even the fact it has no utility value.

ok.

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Pot up

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http://www.strawpoll.me/6972493/r This was posted about a few months ago on the reddit.

In Soviet Reddit, only 14% of people play Ranger.

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If you're dying to a sorc only using dark flame. I honestly think you should git gud.

good thing im not bro. Most sorcs are useless and its great

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Good on you for leaving out the most important part jackass. Witches and Wizards stand still for almost all of their abilities. If they don't have people protecting them they will get dicked on. That's their thing, they excel greatly in large scale fights when they are allowed to do whatever they want. Before DF nerf Sorcs would go in 1v10s spam DF like a herpaderp, get kills and get out. Glad this class went to shit. 

horse?

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so oneshooting people is fun? i can tell you that, for the others it isnt dude.

git gud

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@OP : Don't waste your time trying to explain, they made it obvious by now that they are either clueless about the class itself or just denying because it suits them more.

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